223 brass sizing problems

[Mike Morcillo]

Do you lube the brass before resizing it in the carbide dies? Without lube, you could get too much stress on the brass which would deform the cases. Each case gauge is cut from different reamers, try a different case gauge for sizing. Make sure you resize to recommended OAL.

[RPatton]

Reloading presses stretch when resizing cases. 'C' type more so than 'O' type presses.

The harder you have to force a case into the die the more spring you will have in the press. I loaded 223 on a 550 for several years and then switched to a 650 for resizing and the problem was greatly reduced. A 650 is much more robust than a 550.Use enough One Shot so the cases run through the die easily and see what happens.

The Dillon carbide die is set to make the case fall in the middle of the slot for shoulder height on the Dillon case gauge and as it happens, that causes the ram to cam over Top Dead Center and I don't pause for anything. I can't outrun the case feeder but it's close.

Edited March 23, 2014 by RPatton

[808win]

Smalltruck, probably a typo, but isn't the .223 Remington shoulder datum at the cross-sectional plane where the exterior wall of the case shoulder measures 0.330" in diameter?

[dferrier]

Reloading presses stretch when resizing cases. 'C' type more so than 'O' type presses.

The harder you have to force a case into the die the more spring you will have in the press. I loaded 223 on a 550 for several years and then switched to a 650 for resizing and the problem was greatly reduced. A 650 is much more robust than a 550.Use enough One Shot so the cases run through the die easily and see what happens.

The Dillon carbide die is set to make the case fall in the middle of the slot for shoulder height on the Dillon case gauge and as it happens, that causes the ram to cam over Top Dead Center and I don't pause for anything. I can't outrun the case feeder but it's close.

I see this same kind of inconsistency when I am reloading .223 on my 1050. I ground down the sizer die and that seemed to help, but I still see some cases drop right in the gauge and others stick up just a little.

I even called the helpful folks at ch4d.com looking for advice on maybe an undersized sizer die, and was told that oftentimes a press will "flex". I am beginning to think either I have extractor nicks in some of my cases causing them to stand up as has been noted in previous posts or my 1050 is flexing just a few thousands on some of the (maybe harder?) cases.

I always thought the 1050 was the most stable but about the only way to be sure I guess is to set up an indicator on the tool head somehow to see if it does flex or not.

Think I will do that when I get some time and figure out how to do it...

Edited April 2, 2014 by dferrier

[bigedp51]

If you pause at the top of the ram stroke for three seconds the brass will have less "springback". If you rotate the case 180 and size again you will have more uniform shoulder locations and less runout. Pausing at the top of the ram stroke is letting the brass know who is the boss and to stay put after sizing.

Two things cause the problem below.

1. A dinged and damaged rim

2. Buying once fired brass that was fired in a machine gun with a "FAT" chamber. A small base die and pausing at the top of the ram stroke will reduce the brass springback caused by the case being fired in a much larger diameter chamber.

Grinding the base of the die just over resizes the case and will bump the shoulder of the case back too far. Get a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and measure your fired cases and then adjust your dies for the correct shoulder bump.

Fired case

Same case resized with .003 shoulder bump

Edited April 2, 2014 by bigedp51

[Smokecloud]

The Dillon dies are great, but have more radius at the mouth for reliable operation in the progressive press. running a Lee FCD in the last station will finish sizing the base of the brass about 1/8" farther down than the full length size die will, due to the smaller radius on the opening of the die. If you want it to size even further, put the Lee FCD in a single stage press such as a rockchucker and you can see the size marks on the side of the case wall, it will size down about 1/16" further in the single stage setup than it will in the Dillon. Do that as a final stage and I would bet your case gage results are 99%.

[808win]

Smokecloud, as I understand it, Lee FCD dies for bottleneck cartridges such as the .223 Remington (unlike the Lee Carbide FCD dies available for a limited number of straight wall cases) only crimp the bullet in place and do not size the body of the case.

[Smokecloud]

you are correct sir, I got my wires crossed on pistol vs rifle dies. But you will find that the mechanics are still true, and that the dies hit the shell plate on the Dillon early in comparison to a single stage press. No more pre-coffee posts, I promise.

[BitchinCamaro]

This thread absolutely killed any motivation I formerly held to deal with the last bucket of 5.56 range brass I have sitting in the the garage!

Edited April 5, 2014 by BitchinCamaro

[M&Pman]

Reloading .223/5.56 my Wilson case gage has been just as good as the Dillon case gage.IMO! I did have issues with 5.56 as spoken about earlier with a very small bulge due to the extracter I believe. I just haven't been willing to do anything with the shells....looking forward to hearing more options or ideas on this topic!!

Edited April 7, 2014 by M&Pman

[808win]

I'm reloading .223 Remington for an AR. I've read multiple guides/posts that recommend that you full length resize (ok) and bump the shoulder back 0.003" to 0.004" or 0.003" to 0.005" from the fired case dimension. My 1st problem is my fired case dimensions can vary by 0.003" to 0.004" or 0.003" to 0.005". I'm using an RCBS Precision Mic to measure the cases. I've read at least one recommendation to take an average and another to use the longest dimension. In the world of thousands of an inch, does this make sense? I'm also wondering how a fired case can precisely represent the chamber in the 1st place since the case must shrink from the chamber walls to allow for extraction and as bidedp51 points out, wants to "spring back" to it's original dimension depending on it's hardness. Also, can gas system length affect the fired case dimension since a carbine length gas system begins the extraction process sooner than a rifle length gas system?

Can you share what variance in fired case dimensions you're seeing? Thanks.

[fastshooter03]

I'm reloading .223 Remington for an AR. I've read multiple guides/posts that recommend that you full length resize (ok) and bump the shoulder back 0.003" to 0.004" or 0.003" to 0.005" from the fired case dimension. My 1st problem is my fired case dimensions can vary by 0.003" to 0.004" or 0.003" to 0.005". I'm using an RCBS Precision Mic to measure the cases. I've read at least one recommendation to take an average and another to use the longest dimension. In the world of thousands of an inch, does this make sense? I'm also wondering how a fired case can precisely represent the chamber in the 1st place since the case must shrink from the chamber walls to allow for extraction and as bidedp51 points out, wants to "spring back" to it's original dimension depending on it's hardness. Also, can gas system length affect the fired case dimension since a carbine length gas system begins the extraction process sooner than a rifle length gas system?

Can you share what variance in fired case dimensions you're seeing? Thanks.

Not that much...usually .001-2" at most.

I don't know how the RCBS mic works but make sure the base of your cases are actually flat and not burred up or primer cratered.

Nick

[808win]

Thanks Nick. I wish I was seeing only a 0.001" to 0.002" variance.

Here's a video demonstrating how the RCBS Precision Mic works.

Pacific Tool & Gauge and Whidden Gunworks offer similar micrometer case gauges. For me, I find it easier to obtain accurate/repeatable measurements using a micrometer type gauge.

Good point regarding the case base being flat, not burred and not having a cratered primer. Thanks again.

Edited April 13, 2014 by 808win

[Longhill]

bigedp51 good info and thanks. Would running the cases through a Casepro fix this.

In my experience with the CasePro, it doesn't correct the ejector nicks on the cases.

I ended up using a cordless drill and a flat file to remove the nicks.

Sometimes being a cheap bastard pays off. Live and learn.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Longhill

[Powder Finger]

I'm reloading .223 Remington for an AR. I've read multiple guides/posts that recommend that you full length resize (ok) and bump the shoulder back 0.003" to 0.004" or 0.003" to 0.005" from the fired case dimension. My 1st problem is my fired case dimensions can vary by 0.003" to 0.004" or 0.003" to 0.005". I'm using an RCBS Precision Mic to measure the cases. I've read at least one recommendation to take an average and another to use the longest dimension. In the world of thousands of an inch, does this make sense? I'm also wondering how a fired case can precisely represent the chamber in the 1st place since the case must shrink from the chamber walls to allow for extraction and as bidedp51 points out, wants to "spring back" to it's original dimension depending on it's hardness. Also, can gas system length affect the fired case dimension since a carbine length gas system begins the extraction process sooner than a rifle length gas system?

Can you share what variance in fired case dimensions you're seeing? Thanks.

not fired case dimension, chamber dimension.

[808win]

Sorry Powder Finger, I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that the shoulder should be bumped back 0.003" to 0.004" or 0.003" to 0.005" from the "chamber dimension"? I'm not disagreeing with you, but how would I determine the "chamber dimension" or more specifically the bolt face to shoulder datum dimension? Thanks.

The only way I've thought of to determine an accurate dimension would be to use the following Forster gauge set: http://www.forsterproducts.com/catalog.asp?prodid=700593&showprevnext=1

[RPatton]

bigedp51 good info and thanks. Would running the cases through a Casepro fix this.

In my experience with the CasePro, it doesn't correct the ejector nicks on the cases.

I ended up using a cordless drill and a flat file to remove the nicks.

Sometimes being a cheap bastard pays off. Live and learn.

When I have a case that sticks up, usually because of a nick in the rim, I just stick it in the gauge rim first an wallow it around in the gauge with the proper amount of force. Works about 90% of the time. I do that before resorting to more drastic measures like a file.

[dauntedfuture]

I have found that sometimes the case gauges don't tell the whole truth. With several times fired brass, the case head will sometimes enlarge in diameter. The result is that the front of the rim will hang up a little on the case gauges. These same cases mic just fine in my RCBS case mic. Make sure you have plenty of lube on the cases and you still need some with Carbide .223 dies too. I can speak on press flex but I should think that the Dillon presses are sufficiently robust to resist deflection. If you don't get lube inside the cases, the expander ball can pull the shoulder out a little.