Building an OPEN gun in 9mm

[philproulx]

hello

i'm just curious if i will wast my time and money

i have a STI spartan in 9mm that i just put the caspian action shroud and aimpoint

my next move is a STI trubore barrel but i need to cut the ramp

are there people shooting 9mm in the open division

i just hate 38 super

thanks

philippe

[DWFAN]

Yes, quite a few shooting 9mm.

[gm iprod]

I definitely prefer the 38Super in a 1911. Just fits the frame better for my mind.

I have a 1911 in 9mm for AP, just a cheap back up gun for use at the club when someone wants to try it out. This way the gun runs on factory ammo.

I looked at this some time back and I decided to stick with 38Super / Comp for my new gun.

[mag17]

STI 2011 open pistol with .40S&W and 9mm complete slides.....

[Chris iliff]

Yes, there are a lot of Open shooters running 9 mm. Myself included.

I know more 9mm open shooters than any other kind. But, that may be just where I live.

Edited to say: Sorry, I did not realize this was a Bianchi forum. I amend this and say, I have no idea what Bianchi shooters use. Again sorry.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Chris iliff

[gm iprod]

The majority at the Cup is 38Super / Super Comp, but that is slowly changing.

I bet when a lot of guys progress up from production they will stick with 9mm, they will be set up for it, they will know it and be comfortable with it.

I bought a used Super, it was all there was around at the time. So over the last 20years I just kept buying more Supers. Once you pick the calibre get the dies and cases, the cost to shoot each round is so little different you just won't care. Actually shoot both in similar guns and see what works.

The main advantage of 9mm is the abundance of brass at a reasonable price. You will not find once fired Super easily. The is so much once fired 9mm about at reasonable prices. 9mm will be more popular for components because it is popular, it will remain more popular people people will use it because it is more popular, self fulfilling prophecy.

I do not believe you will get an inaccurate, poor feeding gun because it is in 9mm, the problems will be because the gun has not been set up right, or you have substandard parts or assembly. Set up right 9mm will work just fine. The feed angles are different than with Super. It is easier to set Super up to feed, longer cases feed better than short cases. Proven fact, just ask anyone who bought the first Winchester / Browning Rifles in 300WSM, and anything AR15 not in 223.

Again I have a 9mm in 1911 set up for AP Open, it was really cheap. I have a friend who has just bought a 6" Long Slide STI, and it works perfect. Just keep an eye on OAL in a frame designed for longer than 9x19 cartridges.

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't think I would use a Spartan as the basis for a Bianchi Open gun. Both my Bianchi 1911's are built on STI Rangemaster frames. Nothing really bad with the Spartan for what it was designed around. Just not sure how well the slide frame fit is going to hold up long term. The last one I shot loosened up fairly quickly.

[Greg in VA]

I've got one built on a Trojan 5".

[philproulx]

i will use the spartan just to see if i like OPEN

i'm building my own guns as a hobby and they work for IPSC/USPSA and steel challenge so far

if i like it i will most likely buy an CASPIAN frame and slide and a KKM or Kart barrel

I just started AP here in my province , it has not been shot since 1993 , i got my shooting federation sanctionning AP match for 2014

i bought a STI trojan 6 inch for metallic

i have a Glock 34 for production

now i need a OPEN so i'm testing

thanks for the info

i'll keep on tweaking

[gm iprod]

Keep us in the loop as you progress.

[Action Pistolero]

The main problem that I see with the 9 is reliability. Powder selection is limited. 9mm cases, even from the same manufacturer, differ in case capacity and dimensions.

DWFAN is one of the only 9mm shooters that does really well that I know. John Pride got so fed up with his that he sold it and went back to a revolver.

The good news is that if you can't get it to be reliable, you could always ream it to 9x23.

[gm iprod]

[GrantJ]

9mm is as accurate as anything out there, and as for reliability I see no difference between it and 9x23.

It all comes down to tuning; if the gun is set up right reliability is not an issue. It is also very forgiving to load, I have tried a multitude of powders and most work well and will group under two inches at 50. Finding that magic load that pulls into one inch and has little recoil is a little more time consuming. We currently run around 4.1 of Tightgroup, Starline brass WW primer, behind a Conical Zero 115 JHP. We are aiming for a power factor between 125 and 130. Our guns function flawlessly and the recoil is low. This load will post groups of around 1.25 to 1.5 inches at 50.

GrantJ

[JRB]

Hey Grant.

Is that out of your P9, Kevin had mine re barreled a few years ago, to 9x19 from 9x21, I have yet to play with it much, and had a few problems with the sizing of my reloads. The barrel is real tight. I'm still playing with the revolver.

But I love 3N37 VV, it worked very well for the 9x21, and in my BHP

As for accuracy, any well set up 9mm will do what you need no problem.

Russell

[Action Pistolero]

Hey Grant,

The discussion was about a 1911 in 9mm. You and Helen are different because you are shooting a gun that was designed to shoot 9mm. The 1911 was designed around a cartridge that had an overall length of 1.270". Now if Springfield would make their EMP with a 5" slide, the problem would go away with the 1911. The EMP was shortened in all areas to fit the 9mm.

You all also use Starline brass which eliminates the problem of different size cases from the same manufacturer. Most shooters try to use range brass or other makers.

[philproulx]

got out to test the spartan with the action shroud

i got the ejection pattern ok

but i think i'll have to give the Kart barrel a little bit of head space

the empty brass get stuck in the chamber

and the are hard to get out

really interesting feeling of shooting the barricades with the wings

[Action Pistolero]

got out to test the spartan with the action shroud

i got the ejection pattern ok

but i think i'll have to give the Kart barrel a little bit of head space

the empty brass get stuck in the chamber

and the are hard to get out

really interesting feeling of shooting the barricades with the wings

With the barrel out of the slide, a loaded round should just be under flush with the hood. Will a loaded round drop out? Sounds like the brass may have been fired from a Glock previously and is bulged at the base. The force of the slide closing can jam the round in the chamber and then be difficult to get out. You might try an under size die or be sure you are getting a cam over on the press.

I had a problem with loading rounds for Russell's P9. When I was belling the case mouth the base of the case was bulging out.

[Service Desk]

9mm is as accurate as anything out there, and as for reliability I see no difference between it and 9x23.

It all comes down to tuning; if the gun is set up right reliability is not an issue. It is also very forgiving to load, I have tried a multitude of powders and most work well and will group under two inches at 50. Finding that magic load that pulls into one inch and has little recoil is a little more time consuming. We currently run around 4.1 of Tightgroup, Starline brass WW primer, behind a Conical Zero 115 JHP. We are aiming for a power factor between 125 and 130. Our guns function flawlessly and the recoil is low. This load will post groups of around 1.25 to 1.5 inches at 50.

GrantJ

Grant - some time ago you posted that you were sold on VVN330, how does TG compare in your experience. Edited November 28, 2013 by Service Desk

[GrantJ]

Kevin - I know I was just having some fun… That said a buddy of mine bought an Ed Brown 1911 off Ray Chapman back in 1989. As I understand it a Doctor had it built specifically for the Bianchi Cup, it was in 9mm. He used it for one season then got out of the game for whatever reason. It was a real tack driver and really reliable.

Russell - yes that is what we get out of our Tanfoglio’s. The interesting thing though is that mine is the old style (small frame) and Helen’s is the new large frame. On hers the frame was made bigger to accommodate lager calibers up to and including, 45ACP, making it the 1911 problem in reverse. The magazines she uses have a spacer in the rear keeping the bullet to the front of the mag, it works really well. Accuracy out of hers is not quite as good as mine but still acceptable. We are hoping to re-barrel it over the winter, Briley are making a new batch that should be available here in a little bit. They are really accurate, much more so than the 6” polygonal factory barrel she has right now.

As for powder, yes I really like VV N330 and if supply was reliable we would still be using it. It is a tad slower than WW231 but is really soft shooting. As far as accuracy goes, we were getting really good groups at 50 with the old Zero 115 JHP, with the new conical design I can only imagine what the results would be like, mind numbing comes to mind.

Hope you all have a great Thanksgiving.

GrantJ

[JRB]

Hey Grant.

How do I tell if my P9 is old or new style, I got it and it was 9x21. I got it used.

Why such a light bullet, I would normally use a 124 or 125 JHP, and I got lots of them from Zero.

Russell

Happy thanksgiving all in the USA.

[gm iprod]

Russell,

I reckon your gun is older style, magazines will be shorter and have no spacer in the back or front to shrink to 9mm. Same as my two Tanfoglio P19 (P9 in the US).

Usually I run a 115gr, but it really depends on how you want the recoil to feel. Some guns just plain prefer the 125gr, (Cora's for example just hates anything 115gr). Lighter bullets give you more gas as you use more powder, therefore the comp works better on more gas.

[GrantJ]

Russell

Richard is correct; yours will likely be an old style. The large frame has only been around for a few years. Seems they like the idea of having a one frame suits all kind of deal that will handle anything. Time will tell on that but Helens works just fine. There is a quick check you can do, look at the top of the ejector port, if you can see part of the locking lug area on the barrel in the port it is a large frame, if not it is the small.

As for the 115’s I prefer them to the 125’s. They seem more comfortable to shoot all around and are very accurate; some use a lighter bullet than that.

GrantJ

[JRB]

Thank you Grant.

When time allows I will start trying to get my P9 up and running, I do have some 115's and will give them a try.

Russell.

[gm iprod]

Russell,

If you can get it, start at about 4.0gr Titegroup, and ease up from there. My rebuilt P9 needs about 4.0gr with a 125 to be reliable. Not as accurate as Grants as yet, but getting it back in the groove since the new barrel, straightening of the frame and slide, etc etc. Some people need shooting with what they had done to that poor old gun, I just could not stand by and not fix it. If you make the Cup I will give you the full run down on that project.