CZ 75 Shadow: OK to cock it manually once drawn?

[cohland]

Rather than use the DA pull on the first shot, is it within the rules to manually cock the hammer on a pistol after it is drawn?

Not that I think it matters, but the gun in question is a CZ 75 SP01 Shadow to be used in Production Division.

I'm not saying that this is a great idea, just one I want to explore. My DA pull is fairly heavy, and I wonder if I could teach myself to begin shooting with the SA pull if I can cock the hammer before the first shot.

I did some research and could not find an answer on this Forum.

Thank you.

Chris

[gng4life]

There was a very lengthy discussion on this very recently...should be in the rules section, what did you search for?

However, to answer the question, yes, it is legal after the buzzer.

[Onagoth]

IN IPSC, the first shot attempted has to be double action. Cocking the hammer gets you a procedural.

The only exception I am aware of is on unloaded starts

[CHLChris]

Not being a CZ owner, I don't know this answer...

Is there any chance that this action could cause an AD? Does the CZ hammer have a half-cock as a safety against this? Slipping, even if safe, would require another second or two to remedy.

Additionally, I can't imagine that the time savings or accuracy savings would be balanced out by the time it takes on the other side to cock the hammer and re-establish a proper grip.

[kirbinster]

You can do that in USPSA or IDPA, just adds time.

[sperman]

USPSA = Legal.

IPSC = Not Legal.

[Cy Soto]

Legal? = (in USPSA) Yes.

Worthwhile? = Doubtful.

Have you considered instead having a trigger job done on your CZ? Send it to Stu (BE member eerw) and have him do some of his voodoo magic on that pistol. It'll be money well spent.

[edwin garcia]

I'd consider this technique if :

1. the start position is several steps from the first shot that would afford me time to cock the hammer

2. The first target requires finer trigger control

But i'm an open shooter, so...

[cohland]

We got a quick reply from John Amidon at USPSA about this, here is the text of two email messages:

"From:

DNROI [

mailto:dnroi@uspsa.org

]

Sent:

Monday, November 11, 2013 11:14 AM

To:

Marc Rocque

Subject:

RE: Production Division discussion

Marc,

There is no longer a requirement that the first shot be double action, as long as the hammer is fully down at the start signal, you can manually cock it and fire it single action.

John

From:

Sent:

Monday, November 11, 2013 1:14 PM

To:

John Amidon (

dnroi@uspsa.org

)

Subject:

Production Division discussion

Hi John,

Several of us have been discussing the rules in regards to Start Position with SA/DA semi-auto pistols in Production Division, specifically CZ SP01 Shadow and similar.

Reading the Rules, section 8.1.2.3, states Double Action self-loaders must be fully decocked prior to start signal; Selective action must be fully decocked, OR cocked and safety ON, then a footnote referring to Division notes,which in the case of Production Division, as the first Special Condition following 22.4, states that “fully decocked” is the only option for Production pistols with external hammers.

What is being asked is can that gun be drawn, manually cocked, and the first shot be fired as “single-action”, or must it be fired “double-action” from the “hammer at rest” position?"

I want to add that I'm not sure this is a great idea (as my original post mentioned), but I wanted some clarity on the legality of the move, and now we have it.

Chris

Edited November 11, 2013 by cohland

[rishii]

Dry fire the crap out of it in DA, and learn how to pull thru the DA smoothly while watching your sights

During a stage, draw to the biggest, closest target, and shoot that one DA

If it's a virginia count stage, and the targets are covered in hard cover, you might try to rack the first round in, on the draw

It's a gross motor skill (grabbing the back of the slide) as opposed to a fine one(trying to thumb cock it)

[motosapiens]

+1 on practice. I do a few minutes almost every morning. I'm only a couple tenths slower on more difficult shots (heads at 10yards, plate rack at 20 yards) in double-action. On open targets i'm just as fast in DA out to 15 yards or so. I don't even really think about it anymore. Only took a few months to get that way.

[Jim Watson]

I have seen it done. It is not pretty or fast or efficient, and maybe not safe.

Better to take the Langdon Proverb to heart "Fear not the double action shot." and practice your crunch-ticks.

[steel1212]

Take gun apart. Polish the sides of the hammer, trigger now and trigger (parts the contact other parts). Switch to a 13 pound hammer spring. It's not a trigger job like stu does by any means but it will help. After that PRACTICE!!

[jcc7x7]

This came up at area 7 on the standards cof (merle's standards)

per john armidon you can draw the gun, cock the hammer and fire your 1st shot single action.

you have to decide if it is worth it time wise.

on a 45 yard shot the time difference after much practice(drawing and cocking) was irreverent .

Hits were slightly better than a slow smooth DA shot but not much

Summary: practice you DA shot a lot both near and far. Learn to watch your frt sight at trigger break so you know where the shot went and do a follow up if necessary!!!

[Skydiver]

Take gun apart. Polish the sides of the hammer, trigger now and trigger (parts the contact other parts). Switch to a 13 pound hammer spring. It's not a trigger job like stu does by any means but it will help. After that PRACTICE!!

+1. I've done this with a stock Beretta 92FS and CZ 75B. As simple as it sounds, it makes a huge difference. The downside is that it started me down the path of tinkering with guns... :smile:

[jayjay1]

+1 for to learn shooting it DA.

Go and do some training, it isn´t really so difficult as it seems in the beginning.

Dry fire practice brings a lot too.

[Skydiver]

+1 for practice as well.

The way I learned to get over the initial DA vs SA was to do a lot of shooting at plates. Just start low ready (with finger outside the trigger guard obviously). When not shooting at plates, dry fire a lot. The live fire at plates gives you instant feedback whether you are Doing It Right .

Edited November 17, 2013 by Skydiver

[mag17]

Practice on the first long pull.... When I first started shooting with the uspsa group, I used my sig p228 and practiced A LOT on the first pull....

In a match out have enough to ink about and I would be worried about safety and manually cocking the hammer - safety is never an accident.....

[jayjay1]

I´ve had the same problem in the beginning.

Then I´ve learned to shoot accurate and getting faster day by day.

Meanwhile I don´t mind if I shoot DA or SA, in fact I don´t recognize it, just aiming the target and pulling the trigger.

[RadarTech]

Quick comment here...

I've done this and the racking action when I got my production classification.

He RO swore it was a procedural every time.. And every time I had the MD or a respected GM tell him it was ok...

So be prepared to know how to explain it to him...

[Skydiver]

The RO may have been operating with the IPSC rules rather than the USPSA rules.

[S197Shelby]

I would think the time wasted in trying to cock manually. Better to just cook off that first double action round down range on the target and either fire a single action make up round. Exception would be virginia count.

Of course just practice and dry fire till you can put a quick accurate DA shot in the A zone.

[Chris_C]

USPSA legal but you won't see any of the better shooters do it. Take a clue from the revolver shooters - many of them bob their hammers to improve trigger pull, which in turn prevents them from thumb cocking the gun. They'd rather (slightly) improve the trigger than to ever make a single action shot.

[Czhase]

I actually did this a couple of months ago during a classifier, it called for a string where you draw and shoot the targets weak hand only. I cocked the hammer as I handed it off to my weak hand, that way no left hand double action first shot. Don't feel it added any time and accuracy was better.

[lef-t]

Had a buddy do this with a CZ while I was ROing after he had a string of light strikes. Gun went click and rather than pulling DA he cocked the hammer with his weak hand, fired, and the round went off. It was so fast, and I thought we was racking the slide to clear the round. When the gun went bang I stopped him thinking it was an AD. When he told me what he did I, it made sense since he had been expecting a light strike although not the first thing I would've done.

Just an interesting anecdote that if you do something that the RO doesn't expect and the gun goes off during what appears to be remedial action you'll get stopped. Depending on the RO, you may not be able to explain your way out of it and end up with a DQ.