3 Gun Nation Outlaw Matches?

[Jesse Tischauser]

1st year shooting 3 gun and I am around 20ish in the Semi pro series with plenty of mistakes along the way..

With that said is 3GN going to make pro series shooter pot any better? As it stands if 55 shooters pay 1300.00 to be a member and they then pay 250.00 to shoot in 4 seperate matches 3GN is racking in $126,500.00 based on my math they are only paying out $90,000 and $50,000 of the payout is courtesy of Leupold Tactical Optics and NRA Sports thus leaving them with $86,500.00 from the pro series alone.

It doesn't make sense to shoot the pro series unless you are consistently in the top 3 at each match... Now that I have chased points all year I have come to the conclusion to stay home for the Pro Series qualifier. I cannot justify spending thousands of dollars to reap no benefit. I do love shooting but I can shoot plenty of outlaw matches and reap a reward for decent performance rather than NOTHING! Hope someone from 3gun reads this and makes a positive change for the shooters!

Sorry for the Rant.

AFAIK, 3GN is a business with salary expenses, where as most other matches are run with volunteers. Employees are usually more expensive than volounteers

(ETA: not in reference to the numbers above, just a general reflection on why the price tables at the pro matches might seem smaller than some might expect)

No camera and production crew to pay for at an outlaw match either.

Now what everyone should be asking is where the $275 match fees ($275*250 shooters = $68,000) at an outlaw match goes. I've never gotten a cash prize in an outlaw match. Just donated guns and gear.

I will say that being in the Pro Series had opened up a lot of doors on the sponsorship side of things. If you want to be a Pro meaning getting paid to shoot either by winning or by companies that want you to represent them the Pro series and soon the regional series with the cameras, web presence and the like that 3GN has to offer is where it's all headed.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[gose]

Now what everyone should be asking is where the $275 match fees ($275*250 shooters = $68,000) at an outlaw match goes. I've never gotten a cash prize in an outlaw match. Just donated guns and gear.

Also a good question. Out of curiousity, are prize tables at major matches always 0 cost, or are there costs associated with it, like shipping donated stuff, or flat out buying to (heavily) discounted prices?

Edited November 8, 2013 by gose

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I can tell this is gonna get interesting to watch and see all the responses.

With that said, for many people, this is going to come down to them weighing whether or not they want to shoot certain matches that they loved, OR shooting the 3GN regional matches. The dates overlap or are close to a couple big matches, which in all honesty, is just about unavoidable. Even if they were moved one weekend up or down, how many people here really have the funds to visit BOTH and take time off work for BOTH? It's got to come down to what is worth more to you. Do you want to go all in and push for a chance to enter the Pro Series? Are you in it just for fun and the Pro series is not what you are aspiring to? Weigh those out and you will see that the category you fall into isn't where others fall into.

For me....I'm going to shoot the major matches I shot this year, plus or minus certain matches here and there, and in divisions other than TacOps if the match looks like it would be fun to shoot in Heavy or in Limited.

[Jesse Tischauser]

"Fast, burn-‘em down, Pro-style stages"...exactly what I dislike about 3GN.

I am willing to bet you that the stages look a lot like the ones Tarheel 3 Gun Match Director Charles Sole sets up since he is now the guy in charge of these. The only thing they have in common with the Pro Series is that they have optional weapon choices for certain targets.

2013

2012

[Jesse Tischauser]

if the match looks like it would be fun to shoot in Heavy or in Limited.

I'll save you a bunch of money. There are no matches that are fun to shoot in Heavy!

Edited November 8, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[EaZeNuTZ33]

if the match looks like it would be fun to shoot in Heavy or in Limited.

I'll save you a bunch of money. There are no matches that are fun to shoot in Heavy!

Gotta disagree there. Fallen Brethren is a fun match to shoot Heavy Optics in. I shot it with my OBR last year and the longer range stuff was just fun....the rest you shoot with the same 9mm and SA shotgun afterall.

As for Heavy Irons....I like my glock and my left arm is allergic to pumping motions. Plus, they get all upset when you use a red dot or scope.

[csole]

Amen Jesse...if you want to see what the 3GN regional series will offer Google Tarheel 3 Gun... your computer will blow up. We run 18 -20 matches per year with an average of 90-100 shooters. Most of the TH3GN monthly matches have a wait list. Folks, 2014 will be an epic year for 3 gun..please remember 3 gun nation is about growing the game of 3 gun.

Stay tune for many more sponsor updates and match updates.

If you have ANY questions about the 3 Gun Nation Regional Series please call 919-201-7990 or email me Charles@3gunnation.com...

[Jesse Tischauser]

Amen Jesse...if you want to see what the 3GN regional series will offer Google Tarheel 3 Gun... your computer will blow up. We run 18 -20 matches per year with an average of 90-100 shooters. Most of the TH3GN monthly matches have a wait list. Folks, 2014 will be an epic year for 3 gun..please remember 3 gun nation is about growing the game of 3 gun.

Stay tune for many more sponsor updates and match updates.

If you have ANY questions about the 3 Gun Nation Regional Series please call 919-201-7990 or email me Charles@3gunnation.com...

My only question is can you send me the registration link a day early? Edited November 8, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[EaZeNuTZ33]

A valid question for a lot of people would be if they need to shoot one or three matches in order to qualify for semi pro points.

[Benelli Chick]

1st year shooting 3 gun and I am around 20ish in the Semi pro series with plenty of mistakes along the way..

With that said is 3GN going to make pro series shooter pot any better? As it stands if 55 shooters pay 1300.00 to be a member and they then pay 250.00 to shoot in 4 seperate matches 3GN is racking in $126,500.00 based on my math they are only paying out $90,000 and $50,000 of the payout is courtesy of Leupold Tactical Optics and NRA Sports thus leaving them with $86,500.00 from the pro series alone.

It doesn't make sense to shoot the pro series unless you are consistently in the top 3 at each match... Now that I have chased points all year I have come to the conclusion to stay home for the Pro Series qualifier. I cannot justify spending thousands of dollars to reap no benefit. I do love shooting but I can shoot plenty of outlaw matches and reap a reward for decent performance rather than NOTHING! Hope someone from 3gun reads this and makes a positive change for the shooters!

Sorry for the Rant.

AFAIK, 3GN is a business with salary expenses, where as most other matches are run with volunteers. Employees are usually more expensive than volounteers

(ETA: not in reference to the numbers above, just a general reflection on why the price tables at the pro matches might seem smaller than some might expect)

No camera and production crew to pay for at an outlaw match either.

Now what everyone should be asking is where the $275 match fees ($275*250 shooters = $68,000) at an outlaw match goes. I've never gotten a cash prize in an outlaw match. Just donated guns and gear.

I will say that being in the Pro Series had opened up a lot of doors on the sponsorship side of things. If you want to be a Pro meaning getting paid to shoot either by winning or by companies that want you to represent them the Pro series and soon the regional series with the cameras, web presence and the like that 3GN has to offer is where it's all headed.

$15,000 in cash prizes at RM3G 2013.

Also, over $20,000 in RO rooms alone.

Also, a lot more sponsored shooters than you think, so some of the money is going to pay range fees for sponsored shooters. They're not really free.

We usually end up with about $3000 at the end of the year to turn around and buy more targets with or replace broken ones...

You'll see after you run your new match...it's not near as lucrative as you think!

[Dan Sierpina]

1st year shooting 3 gun and I am around 20ish in the Semi pro series with plenty of mistakes along the way..

With that said is 3GN going to make pro series shooter pot any better? As it stands if 55 shooters pay 1300.00 to be a member and they then pay 250.00 to shoot in 4 seperate matches 3GN is racking in $126,500.00 based on my math they are only paying out $90,000 and $50,000 of the payout is courtesy of Leupold Tactical Optics and NRA Sports thus leaving them with $86,500.00 from the pro series alone.

It doesn't make sense to shoot the pro series unless you are consistently in the top 3 at each match... Now that I have chased points all year I have come to the conclusion to stay home for the Pro Series qualifier. I cannot justify spending thousands of dollars to reap no benefit. I do love shooting but I can shoot plenty of outlaw matches and reap a reward for decent performance rather than NOTHING! Hope someone from 3gun reads this and makes a positive change for the shooters!

Sorry for the Rant.

AFAIK, 3GN is a business with salary expenses, where as most other matches are run with volunteers. Employees are usually more expensive than volounteers

(ETA: not in reference to the numbers above, just a general reflection on why the price tables at the pro matches might seem smaller than some might expect)

No camera and production crew to pay for at an outlaw match either.

Now what everyone should be asking is where the $275 match fees ($275*250 shooters = $68,000) at an outlaw match goes. I've never gotten a cash prize in an outlaw match. Just donated guns and gear.

I will say that being in the Pro Series had opened up a lot of doors on the sponsorship side of things. If you want to be a Pro meaning getting paid to shoot either by winning or by companies that want you to represent them the Pro series and soon the regional series with the cameras, web presence and the like that 3GN has to offer is where it's all headed.

$15,000 in cash prizes at RM3G 2013.

Also, over $20,000 in RO rooms alone.

Also, a lot more sponsored shooters than you think, so some of the money is going to pay range fees for sponsored shooters. They're not really free.

We usually end up with about $3000 at the end of the year to turn around and buy more targets with or replace broken ones...

You'll see after you run your new match...it's not near as lucrative as you think!

Denise, it's always easy to count someone else's money!

[Jesse Tischauser]

1st year shooting 3 gun and I am around 20ish in the Semi pro series with plenty of mistakes along the way..

With that said is 3GN going to make pro series shooter pot any better? As it stands if 55 shooters pay 1300.00 to be a member and they then pay 250.00 to shoot in 4 seperate matches 3GN is racking in $126,500.00 based on my math they are only paying out $90,000 and $50,000 of the payout is courtesy of Leupold Tactical Optics and NRA Sports thus leaving them with $86,500.00 from the pro series alone.

It doesn't make sense to shoot the pro series unless you are consistently in the top 3 at each match... Now that I have chased points all year I have come to the conclusion to stay home for the Pro Series qualifier. I cannot justify spending thousands of dollars to reap no benefit. I do love shooting but I can shoot plenty of outlaw matches and reap a reward for decent performance rather than NOTHING! Hope someone from 3gun reads this and makes a positive change for the shooters!

Sorry for the Rant.

AFAIK, 3GN is a business with salary expenses, where as most other matches are run with volunteers. Employees are usually more expensive than volounteers

(ETA: not in reference to the numbers above, just a general reflection on why the price tables at the pro matches might seem smaller than some might expect)

No camera and production crew to pay for at an outlaw match either.

Now what everyone should be asking is where the $275 match fees ($275*250 shooters = $68,000) at an outlaw match goes. I've never gotten a cash prize in an outlaw match. Just donated guns and gear.

I will say that being in the Pro Series had opened up a lot of doors on the sponsorship side of things. If you want to be a Pro meaning getting paid to shoot either by winning or by companies that want you to represent them the Pro series and soon the regional series with the cameras, web presence and the like that 3GN has to offer is where it's all headed.

$15,000 in cash prizes at RM3G 2013.

Also, over $20,000 in RO rooms alone.

Also, a lot more sponsored shooters than you think, so some of the money is going to pay range fees for sponsored shooters. They're not really free.

We usually end up with about $3000 at the end of the year to turn around and buy more targets with or replace broken ones...

You'll see after you run your new match...it's not near as lucrative as you think!

Denise, it's always easy to count someone else's money!

My point exactly! Everyone seems to think it is OK to discuss 3GN and their finances rather than be glad there are 4 more matches to try to get into. If you don't like it don't shoot it and more importantly don't bitch about it on the Internet.

I'm glad you chimed in Denise. I'm sure you're the only one who will divulge anything. I know you're location is expensive and you guys need more RO's to traverse the mountains. But my math is still confused!?!?

275x$275= $75,000-$15,000-$20,000-$3,000=$37,000

$37,000/$275=135 sponsored shooters and RO's not paying a match fees.

I can only hope the Generation III Gun match has that many sponsored shooters, junior shooters and RO 's supporting junior shooters by attending the match.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Benelli Chick]

My point exactly! Everyone seems to think it is OK to discuss 3GN and their finances rather than be glad there are 4 more matches to try to get into. If you don't like it don't shoot it and more importantly don't bitch about it on the Internet.

I'm glad you chimed in Denise. I'm sure you're the only one who will divulge anything. I know you're location is expensive and you guys need more RO's to traverse the mountains. But my math is still confused!?!?

275x$275= $75,000-$15,000-$20,000-$3,000=$37,000

$37,000/$275=135 sponsored shooters and RO's not paying a match fees.

I can only hope the Generation III Gun match has that many sponsored shooters, junior shooters and RO 's supporting junior shooters by attending the match.

I hope you do, too! That'll be fun!

We did have about 135 shooter's that didn't pay...

I didn't list range fees (including Coors rental and shooter's fees, porta potties...you know...there's a whole list.)
Just have to remember that we're a non-profit (and you are going to be, too) and 3GN is FOR PROFIT.
It's going to look totally different budget wise. They need to pay salaries so they can keep in business!

Us silly non-profit people are donating our time and...be careful Jesse...because you end up spending your own money, too!

More matches, more fun, but more money and less prizes for each match.

Denise Edited November 18, 2013 by Flexmoney

[Jesse Tischauser]

Denise you realize that non profit organizations can pay salaries too, right?

[Benelli Chick]

Denise you realize that non profit organizations can pay salaries too, right?

I do...but it doesn't seem right to me...

We try to reimburse...but, we took this thing on to keep it going when things got ugly, not to make a profit for ourselves.

I know...kind of silly!

I also can't seem to be able to take care of the staff the best we can, the shooters the best we can, the sponsors the best we can, and still have money left to pay ourselves...

But, we still have a good time...and think it's a good match...so it all works out.

[MickB]

I will chime in with Denise here and comment on Superstition Mountain. This is where the money from Match Fees goes, and it is no big secret.

Vendor's Tent rental, tables and chairs

Port a Potty rental

Golf Cart Rental

Prop purchase and construction

Shooter's match Shirts

RO Staff shirts and hats

RO meals for 3 days

Targets

I've probably missed a few things, but those costs tally up quick. About half the Match Fees go to purchase MORE PRODUCT for the prize tables.

Like Denise said, you might clear a 3-5K at the end of the Match, but that is then used as seed money for next year's match. You have to buy stuff before the next fees are even received.

Everything that Superstition Mountain receives, whether cash from match fees and Sponsors and product from sponsors, ALL of it goes back to the shooters.

SMM3G is not a profit making venture. PERIOD.

Mick

[BigBets]

Lots of interesting things going on here. I for one am reading contentedly as this all shakes out. In the end we all have one of three goals as I see it.

1. Make the pro series...advance to the best in the country....be damned with the money time travel or expenses

2. Shoot outlaw matches and try to get some return on time or investment with prizes to offset costs and have fun

3. Shoot outlaw matches as a hobby and vacation. Who cares about time and money it's all fun

I for one am still debating between one and two and three. That being said I have been to matches consecutively year to year that have had nearly the same stages, all the same props, and same or higher match fees with less prize table winnings and less porta potties.

Then I ask is this a business less about shooter experience. The answer is probably yes but those matches are dying due to new and better more progressive customer based businesses plans. Few things in life are for pure enjoyment for others with no thought of money. If that is what you wish I suggest volunteerism!!!

[BigBets]

And my post typing before the above two responses. For the record the above two matches have had some of the best prize tables, shooter experiences, and variety year to year as any I have seen. Something that will behoove them greatly in the future I suspect!!!!

[Sterling White]

When did 3GN adopt the term "outlaw" matches? I thought that it was a term to describe the big 5 or 6 matches that were not conforming to USPSA rules. Is it a way of marketing the new pizza box targets? Misnomer!

Edited November 9, 2013 by Sterling White

[LSnSC]

Charles puts on a top notch match. Always a good mix of stages. I shot Heavy Metal Irons at the 2013 Tarheel Challenge , both of the Clinton House matches and several of his club matches. All of my skills were tested and I had a blast. Im sure the regional matches will be the same.

[Jesse Tischauser]

When did 3GN adopt the term "outlaw" matches? I thought that it was a term to describe the big 5 or 6 matches that were not conforming to USPSA rules. Is it a way of marketing the new pizza box targets? Misnomer!

I don't see that they called any of their matches outlaw anywhere. I did that in my title.

The term outlaw is to natural terrain matches like the brand name Kleenex is to tissue.

There aren't any major matches that fall under USPSA anymore are there?

Edited November 9, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[P.E. Kelley]

"Outlaw" in context of 3-Gun has become a descriptive term. It is used the same way by 3GN.

The following is the first paragraph from the 3GN website.

3-Gun Nation is proud to announce the advent of yet another new competition series—the 3-Gun Nation (3GN) Regional Championships. Part 3GN Pro Series, part natural-terrain/outlaw-inspired stage design, the 3GN Regional matches will comprise everything one can expect to see in the sport of 3-gun. These four events will be open to any 3GN member, with a one-time membership fee of $25 applied to any non-member who would like to shoot.

3GN is just offering more matches to choose from. Like all events, you pays your money you takes your chances.

Edited November 9, 2013 by P.E. Kelley

[Jesse Tischauser]

I will chime in with Denise here and comment on Superstition Mountain. This is where the money from Match Fees goes, and it is no big secret.

Vendor's Tent rental, tables and chairs

Port a Potty rental

Golf Cart Rental

Prop purchase and construction

Shooter's match Shirts

RO Staff shirts and hats

RO meals for 3 days

Targets

I've probably missed a few things, but those costs tally up quick. About half the Match Fees go to purchase MORE PRODUCT for the prize tables.

Like Denise said, you might clear a 3-5K at the end of the Match, but that is then used as seed money for next year's match. You have to buy stuff before the next fees are even received.

Everything that Superstition Mountain receives, whether cash from match fees and Sponsors and product from sponsors, ALL of it goes back to the shooters.

SMM3G is not a profit making venture. PERIOD.

Mick

Nobody cares unless you use actual dollars and cents to show exactly why you're broke. What idiot is going to come into a thread that is bitching about a match making a profit and say "we made $59,999 at our Match last year."

Wasn't superstition nonexistent a few years ago?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is a thought. If your match fills up in minutes but you're losing money or barely breaking even after it's all said and done, why not raise the entry fee until it's selling out a little bit slower?

Edited November 9, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Uber]

This will be great! It will be nice to have 4 matches with the same rules every time. Worst part about shooting "Outlaw" matches, is having to change equipment or leave some at home to shoot the same division as the last match where it was allowed.