Shooter must remain within shooting area at all times after the start

[Skydiver]

Hey guys! Long time no post. I've been pretty busy with family stuff lately.

Anyway, I've got an opportunity to go to a Level II match soon and I looking over the match book's stage descriptions and this caught my eye is the stage procedure on a 30 round course of fire:

Shooter must remain within shooting area at all times after the start signal.

My understanding is that this contradicts this rule:

10.2.9 A competitor who leaves a shooting location may return and shoot again from the same location provided they do so safely. However, written stage briefings for Classifiers, Standard Exercises and Level I matches may prohibit such actions, in which case one procedural penalty per shot fired will apply.

Since this is a Level II match, and it's a long course, then the second sentence doesn't apply.

Additionally, the stage diagram didn't indicate any Off Limits lines as required by 2.3.1.1.c.

To me, unless I see any changes to the stage briefing when I get to the stage, it seems to me that I can safely leave and re-enter the course of fire to take a shortcut (remember 2.3.1.1. , and if need be easily successfully win an arbitration.

[Sarge]

I thought there was talk of wanting to make this a rule but it got rejected. Sounds like an illegal stage unless you are talking IPSC and not USPSA.

[sperman]

I wonder if NROI blessed the stages before they were posted.

[JupiterAdam]

Can you post a link or a PDF/scan of the stage and description? That would help.

[Skydiver]

When I used to be active on this forum, the forum rules required that we not single directly out a particular match, shooter, or official. If that has changed, I'd be glad to put a link to the PDF match book. If that hasn't changed, search for state matches coming up in the next couple of days/weeks near the Washington, DC area.

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[Sarge]

When I used to be active on this forum, the forum rules required that we not single directly out a particular match, shooter, or official. If that has changed, I'd be glad to put a link to the PDF match book. If that hasn't changed, search for state matches coming up in the next couple of days/weeks near the Washington, DC area.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

Skydiver,

Very class act on your part. Thanks to your clues I looked up the stage. Why they don't just close off the right side is beyond me. I don't see anything unsafe in taking the right side end around either. Looks like a flaw was found in the stage design and they tried correcting it by making something illegal. Very surprised the RM signed off on this one.

[Skydiver]

Or PM me, and I can send a link when I get home.

The shooter starts on the rear right part of the stage, and the shooting area is a big flattened letter C with a wall in middle of the C.

The wall does not extend all the way to the right. There is a gap to facilitate access for tapers, and as shortcut for an RO if they don't want to run with the shooter all the way to left.

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[OUshooter]

I wonder if NROI blessed the stages before they were posted.

per nroi they have no control over the designs once approved. I've seen lvl 2 stages that should never been approved and were flat hazardous.

[Sarge]

I wonder if NROI blessed the stages before they were posted.

per nroi they have no control over the designs once approved. I've seen lvl 2 stages that should never been approved and were flat hazardous.

How you figure? This is what the rule book says

USPSA Match Levels

Level I — Club matches conducted on a scheduled basis throughout the year.

Level II — Sectional or State matches conducted on an annual basis.

Level III — Annual championship matches conducted by USPSA Areas (1 - 8).

Nationals — Annual USPSA championship matches.

Note: Major matches conducted on an irregular or annual basis and which

do not represent a specific Section, State, or Area championship shall request

either Level II or Level III sanctioning.

Key: N/A = Not Applicable, R = Recommended, M = Mandatory

Match Level: I II III Nationals

1. Must follow current USPSA rules M M M M

2. Competitors must be USPSA members

(Section 6.4) R M M M

3. Match Director M M M M

4. Range Master (certified or appointed) M M M M

5. Certified Range Master N/A R M M

6. Range Master approved by Area Director N/A R M N/A

7. Range Master approved by NROI N/A R M M

8. Certified Chief Range Officer(s) R R M M

9. Minimum one Certified NROI official per

stage R M M M

10. COF approval by NROI R M M M

11. COF submitted to Area Director N/A M M N/A

12. NROI Sanctioning N/A M M M

13. Chronograph R R M M

14. 1-month advance registration w/NROI N/A M N/A N/A

15. 2-month advance registration w/NROI N/A N/A M N/A

16. Inclusion in USPSA Match Calendar N/A M M M

17. Post match reports to USPSA N/A M M N/A

18. Recommended minimum rounds 28 75 150 150

19. Recommended minimum stages 2 5 8 8

20. Recommended minimum competitors 10 50 120 120

21. Classifier stages allowed (1) 1 (2) 1 2 N/A

NROI must approve the COF for level II

[Sarge]

I wonder if NROI blessed the stages before they were posted.

I've seen lvl 2 stages that should never been approved and were flat hazardous.

That is on the RM and NROI.

[Ben Stoeger]

I would be surprised if the stage hits the ground as it is written.

[Strick]

Seems like under 2.2.1.5 it can be easily addressed during setup.

[Skydiver]

Yup. I had the same thought. I'm in the middle composing email to the stage designer and MD right now.

[Flatland Shooter]

Can't be changing the COF after NROI approval. Though never recommended, if the setup does cause a safety hazard, they could go the "forbidden action" route once a competitor gives the shortcut a try.

Much simpler to put up barrel or barricade to make that route downright unattractive.

Bill

[Skydiver]

So you mean use:

2.3.1.1.a Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition or to prohibit exploit of an unintended course loophole in order to circumvent a course requirement and/or gain unfair competitive advantage.

But what would make it unsafe... an RO being downrange of shooter standing in the gap? Or there being too many obstacles that it becomes a tripping hazard and therefore unsafe?

[Nik Habicht]

Can't be changing the COF after NROI approval. Though never recommended, if the setup does cause a safety hazard, they could go the "forbidden action" route once a competitor gives the shortcut a try.

Much simpler to put up barrel or barricade to make that route downright unattractive.

Bill

Of course you can. The RM who is actually on the ground, as the match is being built and run, is the ultimate authority -- as the responsibility for running a safe and equitable match also rests on his/her shoulders.

NROI approval of courses for Level 2 matches is meant as a mandatory requirement to seek advice on the planned stage design. Some of the best design though may encounter a significant problem when it is being built, that needs to be rectified -- even if that creates a diversion from the original NROI submission....

[OUshooter]

I wonder if NROI blessed the stages before they were posted.

I've seen lvl 2 stages that should never been approved and were flat hazardous.

That is on the RM and NROI.

I will not openly discuss what i have seen but will gladly trade PMs if desired.

[Nik Habicht]

I wonder if NROI blessed the stages before they were posted.

per nroi they have no control over the designs once approved. I've seen lvl 2 stages that should never been approved and were flat hazardous.

How you figure? This is what the rule book says

USPSA Match Levels

Level I — Club matches conducted on a scheduled basis throughout the year.

Level II — Sectional or State matches conducted on an annual basis.

Level III — Annual championship matches conducted by USPSA Areas (1 - 8).

Nationals — Annual USPSA championship matches.

Note: Major matches conducted on an irregular or annual basis and which

do not represent a specific Section, State, or Area championship shall request

either Level II or Level III sanctioning.

Key: N/A = Not Applicable, R = Recommended, M = Mandatory

Match Level: I II III Nationals

1. Must follow current USPSA rules M M M M

2. Competitors must be USPSA members

(Section 6.4) R M M M

3. Match Director M M M M

4. Range Master (certified or appointed) M M M M

5. Certified Range Master N/A R M M

6. Range Master approved by Area Director N/A R M N/A

7. Range Master approved by NROI N/A R M M

8. Certified Chief Range Officer(s) R R M M

9. Minimum one Certified NROI official per

stage R M M M

10. COF approval by NROI R M M M

11. COF submitted to Area Director N/A M M N/A

12. NROI Sanctioning N/A M M M

13. Chronograph R R M M

14. 1-month advance registration w/NROI N/A M N/A N/A

15. 2-month advance registration w/NROI N/A N/A M N/A

16. Inclusion in USPSA Match Calendar N/A M M M

17. Post match reports to USPSA N/A M M N/A

18. Recommended minimum rounds 28 75 150 150

19. Recommended minimum stages 2 5 8 8

20. Recommended minimum competitors 10 50 120 120

21. Classifier stages allowed (1) 1 (2) 1 2 N/A

NROI must approve the COF for level II

Sarge -- what NROI ius getting at is that DNROI or his delegate may not be on the range when the match is being built and run....

They bless the stages and/or suggest modifications when the match is in the planning stages -- the actual execution is left to the MD and the person serving as RM, who could be a RMI, a certified RM, an experienced CRO, or even just an RO for a Level II match.....

[Skydiver]

A quick followup: The MD responded that the issue was actually caught during the NROI approval process, and was corrected. The match book just happened to contain the old text.

[JakeMartens]

do you just hate it when the system works and takes away from the fun of everyone making guesses on something