hockeydadnu27 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Looking for advise on unloading your AR on a multi-gun stage. I have found during a tournament this action takes more concentration than shooting. What is the safest and what is the quickest? I feel dropping the mag and then discharge a round down range is not the safest. I always end up rechecking the chamber for clear before leaving the gun. If I drop the mag and eject the round manually, it feels like it takes forever. I want to practice cooling down before ssm3gun 2005, just need some advise what works best. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 dad, I saw the title of your thread and thought you might have shot the 532 round carbine stage at the ITRC this year. I'm not totally familiar with the rules on this. (I should be) This is one of those situations that, I believe match officials or maybe even USPSA needs to weigh in on. As a hardcore competitor, I'm going to unload the fastest way that's legal. If every competitor is required to clear the weapon the same way in the rules, we can all practice and become proficient it the safest manner. I assume most COF's will require the bolt to be left open and the magazine out. If you happen to shoot the gun dry, the bolt locks back and voila! You hit the mag button and you're clear. Otherwise, like you, I'm checking he chamber anyway. No point in firing an extra round. I've got to clear the chamber and hit the bolt stop anyway. Proficency is a good thing. I'm practicing several ways. BTW, factory spec rounds "hand eject" better 'n faster than reloads in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.E.Anglin Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 whats unsafe about firing your last round down range??? you just put 50 others down there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Exactly as you do now, but put that last shot into a target. I'm going to edit the topic title... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I agree with Mark, if you have to leave it empty I would rather shoot it dry. Speed un-loading, no matter how much it is practiced has the potential for trouble. I prefer safety on and dump it in a muzzle control device. I am still on the fence about hot pistol re-holstering. I really like the hot-boxes the RM3G uses. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 whats unsafe about firing your last round down range??? you just put 50 others down there? M.E., I think the difference in the first 50 rounds and the last one is intent. Fifty rounds fired for points on targets are much safer in my humble opinion than one round hurriedly dumped in a general direction. Many berms are only 8 feet high. A person holding a carbine at waist level and "torching one off" can easily blast a bullet over the berm. I'm not at all concerned about experienced shooters like yourself doing this. I'm concerned about the guy that's at match #3 and shaking like Barny Fife. He puts one round out there where it doesn't belong and possibly someone dies. End of match. End of sport. Just my .02, but I'd rather see guns cleared with muzzles low. At least when there's an AD, and there will be ADs, everbody knows were it went. I really like Erik's point about putting the last shot into a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 If there was only a way to make the bolt on an AR lock back when fireing the last round with no mag in place? Any ideas? As far as I am concerned you should NEVER have to reholster a hot handgun durring the course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Yeah, reholstering a hot handgun in a speed rig, under time pressure, is not something I feel warm and fuzzy about either. Sweeping could be a problem. Having it fall out could be another problem. There's always at least one set of shaky hands at any match I've been to. Sometimes they are mine. And it takes two hands and an arm pit to lock back my AR with no mag. Shooting it dry in aimed fire makes a lot of sense to me. I have every confidence that our leaders will find the best and safest answer. (with plenty of input from the membership, of course) If we take care of the safety, the fun will take care of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.E.Anglin Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 don't use a speed rig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Anyone who can safely run and jump and otherwise frolic with a loaded gun should also be able to safely holster it under the same circumstances. Assuming it's a safe (i.e. carry) holtser to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Ditto on the safe holsters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 From what I have seen, with the "SAFE" carry type holsters someone is more likley to have an AD while holstering. I have seen several occurences of 1911 shooters holstering with the safety off and Glock shooters not getting there finger completly clear of the holster while under pressure and on the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 BLKBRD: What you describe would be an instant "bang" if a Glockenspieler holstered with his finger on the trigger. I haven't heared of this happen in matches, and have never seen on at a 3-gun match with multi gun stages. I do know of a few L.E. happenings but never at a match. Details?? As for a holstered 1911 type gun without the safety applied, I guess I'm good with that as long as the trigger is covered by the holster. I think a safety is more of a "feel good" device. It never should have been named that. I think hesitation device would be better. Remember "a safety is a mechanical device that can and will fail". This quote is a direct one from the N.R.A. basic classes! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 kurtm, I have seen the reholster "bang" @ a FIPT match in the 90's. Finger caught the "the safty device" (holster) when the gun went in. Also have heard the storys of L.E. with the same result. Having witnessed this I have allways questioned the USPSA title of "saftey device" for the holster but that is my .02 on that subject. I dont care for the hot handgun reholster on the clock. Too many mistakes can happen on the clock for hot reholstering. Witnessed a strong hand only reload AD where the guy put the gun empty back into his holster, stuck a fresh mag in and unholstered the gun hooked the rear sights on the holster thied to shuck a round in one hand and Bang AD. I'm not sure where his finger was or if it was too much triger work I jumped back and I wasent the RO! Back to the topic of unloading the AR in a stage. I feel that the mag dump, fire last round into backstop/target is fine. If the RO is watching that should be a clear gun. You should be OK to advance in front of the gun @ that point. Or a device that holds the muzzle down (barrel) in a safe direction is OK. Forgot to add: Speed holsters should not be considered in multi-gun matches. I believe the "duty" type is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Slowsure: What is a FIPT match? I can only feel that what you describe, the safety device in this case can not be considered the "holster" rather than the first digit of the hand holding the gun. Rule #3: Keep your finger off the trigger untill your sights are on target...not untill your sights are in holster Your example of the one handed reload causing an AD can't be remanded to the holster either. the gun was as you pointed out in his hand, not the holster. How at this point can you blame the holster? I must admit it is an imaginitive way to solve the racking one handed problem, but what happened here was more than likely a strong grip on the pistol creating a sympathetic trigger finger squeeze. Still and all I'm good with you not liking hot reholsering. I just happen to like it and it works for me. As to AR unloading on the clock, I have timed it all ways I can, and have found that dropping the mag and manually racking out the chambered round to be the fastest. The drop mag shoot last shot isn't bad but I find it really slowes people down due to reaquiering the sight after dropping the mag and then tring to asertain the the mag did indeed drop free befor discharging the last shot. Dropping the mag and roaching the last shot off , hopefully at a berm,has the same hesitation penalty because once again you have to visibly reafirm that the mag droped out and I don't care who does it there is always a bit of flinch on the part of the shooter ( even the real hi speed guys ) because this just isn't a natural thing to do. The only way to do this one right, out side of being lucky enough to hit the berm, is to pull the trigger twice to make sure you didn't get the sequence just a bit off. The first flinch is bad... but the second is priceless!! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 The subject is rifles, specifically ARs. Not reholstering pistols. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Not the hot holster like-dislike and speed unloading subject again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Kurt-Florida Invitational Pistol Tournament. TJ, TGO, J Bernhart and all "those" guys used to shoot this match in Feb. I believe F. Garcias match (Florida Open) is now in the same time slot. Eric - Forgive me father, for I have sinned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Slowsure Thanks. The letters just didn't mean anything to me. Now I know! I recognise some of those names, was this a USPSA sanctioned match? I just can't imagin USPSA "allowing" hot reholstering. It must have been a fun match! sorry its gone. KURTM Sorry Eric I used the "H" word again, but I really only want the info, not to drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Kurt, Sorry for the confusion. This AD came after LAMR command, not the unmentionable H H. The FIPT was a USPSA sanction match with lots of fun and crazy stages. Sorry Eric - Forgive me father, for I have sinned again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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