johes Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) The tiger teams dropped the ball on this one... sorry... when they get their head out of their ass I'll consider renewing my license.... I suspect that this rule was written before the Tiger Teams were ever chosen. Good point. We may be blaming the tigers for some of these "Why?" rules they had no control over. Edited October 23, 2013 by johes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 i'm still behind cover and in the open with a slide lock gun. correct??? I don't see how you can say you are behind cover and in the open. If you are in the open you get a PE for not using cover, if you are behind cover you get a PE for advancing during a reload. In the stage you mentioned you engage the first 3 targets on the move. So if you run dry on those 3 you can reload moving to cover. You engaged the 4th target which required using cover. After engaging that target you are now behind cover and cannot advance. You earned a PE even though they didn't give it to you. Probably could even call that a FTDR as you were trying to get around a rule to gain a advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 tbarker13 hit the nail on the head. If you were behind cover while firing the last shot you may not advance until you reload. Now, if you had neutralized all the threats before leaving cover and then fired extra, unneccessary shots while advancing...... I don't know. There's no rule against round dumping now, is there? Could be FTDR. I think there is a rule that says when cover is available you must use it. If you reengage targets after leaving cover and the COF didn't call for that I think you get a PE for not using cover. Then maybe another one for the advancing while reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetrulis01 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I also had another thought. If they wanted it to be "REAL LIFE," why can't I do a Tac Reload why advancing behind cover. I still have a round in the chamber to engage a threat if it presents itself. I am sick and tired of IDPA stating they are trying to do things that are more real world.......because most of the stuff is not........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 I also had another thought. If they wanted it to be "REAL LIFE," why can't I do a Tac Reload why advancing behind cover. I still have a round in the chamber to engage a threat if it presents itself. I am sick and tired of IDPA stating they are trying to do things that are more real world.......because most of the stuff is not........ If they made it to "real world" it wouldn't be fun, and I for one wouldn't play. I wonder how many people in real gun fights do tac loads on the run from one place to another with out knowing where the bad guys are. I bet it's not many. They should probably force you to do standing tac loads at every shooting position before advancing. That sounds more "real life". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I also had another thought. If they wanted it to be "REAL LIFE," why can't I do a Tac Reload why advancing behind cover. I still have a round in the chamber to engage a threat if it presents itself. I am sick and tired of IDPA stating they are trying to do things that are more real world.......because most of the stuff is not........ If they made it to "real world" it wouldn't be fun, and I for one wouldn't play. I wonder how many people in real gun fights do tac loads on the run from one place to another with out knowing where the bad guys are. I bet it's not many. They should probably force you to do standing tac loads at every shooting position before advancing. That sounds more "real life". I think a speed reload would be more realistic than anything in the current IDPA rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetrulis01 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I am not saying this and that is more real life. But IDPA is trying to image themselves and training for real life when some of the things would never be done in a gunfight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgulley Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 tbarker13 hit the nail on the head. If you were behind cover while firing the last shot you may not advance until you reload. Now, if you had neutralized all the threats before leaving cover and then fired extra, unneccessary shots while advancing...... I don't know. There's no rule against round dumping now, is there? Could be FTDR. I think there is a rule that says when cover is available you must use it. If you reengage targets after leaving cover and the COF didn't call for that I think you get a PE for not using cover. Then maybe another one for the advancing while reloading. I think you make a good case for a PE for not using available cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 I also had another thought. If they wanted it to be "REAL LIFE," why can't I do a Tac Reload why advancing behind cover. I still have a round in the chamber to engage a threat if it presents itself. I am sick and tired of IDPA stating they are trying to do things that are more real world.......because most of the stuff is not........ If they made it to "real world" it wouldn't be fun, and I for one wouldn't play. I wonder how many people in real gun fights do tac loads on the run from one place to another with out knowing where the bad guys are. I bet it's not many. They should probably force you to do standing tac loads at every shooting position before advancing. That sounds more "real life". I think a speed reload would be more realistic than anything in the current IDPA rulebook. I doubt many people count there shots in real gun fights. They probably reload when the gun runs out, or the fight is over. I doubt a speed reload is anymore realistic. Personally I'd rather be able to reload when ever I want, how ever I want. But that's not the rules, realistic or not. I'll play the game the best I can with in the rules I've been given. Sometimes maybe just a touch outside the rules if I can, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think there is a rule that says when cover is available you must use it. If you reengage targets after leaving cover and the COF didn't call for that I think you get a PE for not using cover. Then maybe another one for the advancing while reloading. Of course, this is the problem with IDPA's reloading rules. They work for 90 percent or more of what we find in stages. But then we have examples like this that fall into a huge gray area. Some SO's might give a PE here. Others might not - ruling that there's nothing that prevents a shooter from making up shots on a target while on the move. (assuming the required # of shots were taken from cover, as required in the COF.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think there is a rule that says when cover is available you must use it. If you reengage targets after leaving cover and the COF didn't call for that I think you get a PE for not using cover. Then maybe another one for the advancing while reloading.Of course, this is the problem with IDPA's reloading rules. They work for 90 percent or more of what we find in stages. But then we have examples like this that fall into a huge gray area. Some SO's might give a PE here. Others might not - ruling that there's nothing that prevents a shooter from making up shots on a target while on the move. (assuming the required # of shots were taken from cover, as required in the COF.) It depends on the stage discription, most of the time it will say engage target from cover. In fact I think it's in the new rules that the SO must indicate the postion of cover for each target. So if they tell you where the cover is, and you leave that and reengage a target you should get a pe. I'll continue to do what I've always done at sanctioned matches. I'll ask the SO's questions to figure out what they are letting people do. Because everyone seems to have there own idea of what the rules are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Model19 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I'll have to check the rules for a specific cover position being specified. If that's true and the shooter cannot use his discretion in where he stands in relationship to the cover as long as he is not exposed to any threats...that's lame. Sounds like shooting boxes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 3.5. SOs must, during the stage walkthrough, verbally indicate to all shooters the points of cover for each target and the criteria that will be used in assessing the shooter's use of cover during the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Model19 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 So there we go again with SO's having a lot of leeway. I'm an SO, so don't get me wrong, I like having better defined rules, but I also am not such a fan of more strictly defined procedures for shooters to follow in a stage. We're not yet at the point of the CoF drawing have X's to reprsent the only place you can stand and shoot and dotted lines showing the path you MUST take as you navigate the course, but we inch closer. I believe in not crowding cover. My defined points of cover will allow enough radius to do so. Then it is up to me as the course designer to make sure you cannot use that leeway for an unforseen advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 My defined points of cover will allow enough radius to do so. Then it is up to me as the course designer to make sure you cannot use that leeway for an unforseen advantage. I think that is the key to things running smooth. But it does seem to put a lot on the match staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Having read all the post in the discussion all's I can say is after shooting kentuckyana this past weekend, I tried my best to be flat footed at all times unless I was caught out in the open and while I did not get any PE for it, some other people did. It sucks I don't know why they changed it, but from what I seen it leveled the playing field for those none athletic types that do not move very fast but shoot accurate as all hell & allot of times got beat by the guy that moved & shoots like lighting but has a ton of points down. Suddenly your speed really doesn't make up ground any more. Just my thought~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Having read all the post in the discussion all's I can say is after shooting kentuckyana this past weekend, I tried my best to be flat footed at all times unless I was caught out in the open and while I did not get any PE for it, some other people did. It sucks I don't know why they changed it, but from what I seen it leveled the playing field for those none athletic types that do not move very fast but shoot accurate as all hell & allot of times got beat by the guy that moved & shoots like lighting but has a ton of points down. Suddenly your speed really doesn't make up ground any more. Just my thought~ Odd, I would expect the opposite. Standing reloads to me would help the fast guys. Stand here hit your reload, and haul ass to the next position. As opposed to a smooth reload on the move that doesn't need to be as fast. The key is to be done when you get to the next position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Model19 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Fast guys are fast no matter what you make them do. Somebody who has perfected his reload while hauling ass has eliminated a time element. Simple math really. .7sec reload + 3 second sprint vs 3 second sprint while doing the reload at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 But, my reload is 2 sec. If on the move I can make my reload in the same 3 sec sprint I'm right there with the fast guy. But, if I have to stand still and reload now I'm 1.3 sec behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johes Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Somebody's pet peeve turned into the gospel So begins the spiral... So true. The entire reload section could be covered in one sentence, or even better, left out completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Johes, I couldn't agree more. But spirals are so much fun, specialy on the way down ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetrulis01 Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 I am almost done shooting IDPA....to much rules to remember. I really don't like dancing and that is what IDPA has turned into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 you mean dancing like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 I got a PE for a reload at a sanctioned match today, and I'm not even sure how I could have avoided it. It was lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Lots of PEs called yesterday at the NM state match for reloads. I didn't get one, but saw several. They explained it before the match that if you move BOTH feet at all while doing a reload, the finger came out. Moving ONE foot was OK. Not a big deal to me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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