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What does 'fits in the box' mean?

IHAVEGAS

By IHAVEGAS
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IHAVEGAS Burned Out

IHAVEGAS

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I've got a 100% stock STI Eagle that will go in the IDPA box if you push the 100% stock magazine up slightly and pull the slide back very slightly out of battery. Does that mean it fits in the box because you can close the lid after you carefully wedge the gun in place just so, or does it mean it does not fit ?

Seems like it is a don't fit thing because dimensions very slightly exceed box dimensions, but a lot of folks are using this gun for IDPA and I haven't found any "non IDPA legal" stuff written about the Eagle so maybe (hopefully) I'm wrong.

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sirveyr Finally read the FAQs

sirveyr

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DUDE ,the gun has to fit in the box without yor help.........rules are rules........at club matches normally that wont matter.

Where does it say that? The rule only states that the firearm must fit in the box that measures 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8”.

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IHAVEGAS Burned Out

IHAVEGAS

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I'm surprised it doesn't fit, unless it has a magwell on it. Those need to be trimmed.

No magwell, and like you I was surprised that there was an issue.

I could have the barrel crowned, which makes a reasonably cheap fix for getting the gun into battery but I'm hoping somebody knows if there is an official answer out there somewhere so I won't be wasting $'s if I don't need to (and I prefer the look as is).

The start in the box stage question is interesting also, since revolvers don't fit in the box without the lid being askew I don't know if other guns would need to?

The last piece that makes things persnickety is that the 'official' wooden IDPA boxes are not neccessarily exact in internal dimensions, particularly the ones that have been stored in a shed somewhere (no climate control) for a few years, I measured the one at my local club Saturday & it is right on the height dimension but about 1/16" short on length (I need a just smidge more than the 1/16" however).

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Sarge Back From the Dead

Sarge

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Posted (edited)

I'm surprised it doesn't fit, unless it has a magwell on it. Those need to be trimmed.

I'm hoping somebody knows if there is an official answer out there somewhere

Edited by Sarge
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IHAVEGAS Burned Out

IHAVEGAS

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Still digging into stuff in case there is general interest. Perusing the new IDPA rulebook under ESP regulations (8.2.2.1.4) and Match Equipment Check Guidelines (1.4.1.12.) doesn't give me any detail beyond 'fits in the box'.

The old rulebook on ESP guns (page 21 D.) says "Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 3/4 x 6 x 1 5/8 with an empty magazine inserted".

USPSA rules (I know they don't apply here but are interesting) have things nailed down pretty nicely "Handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16 x 6 x 1 5/8 (tolerance + 1/16, -0)".

My conclusions at this point are;

1. If I'm doing the inspection duties, if a person can get his gun with empty magazine in the box & close the lid, I'm going to pronounce him good to go. All doubt goes in favor of the shooter is a general principle of the sport and I'd apply it here until I found something official that said otherwise.

2. Any problem with the loaded start in the box thing can't override the 'fits in the box with empty magazine inserted rule'. I.E. it would be a no no to design a stage such that legal equipment could not be used.

3. It is interesting that USPSA added another 3/16 to the length (or IDPA subtracted same) and it is handy that they clarified the box tolerance.

4. Pragmatically speaking, I think I'll just crown the barrel (or maybe take length off the grip safety tang) when time permits, to stay away from debate. Would be interesting to know if some Eagles (mine is a 2013 manufacture) perhaps have longer barrels or safety tangs than others.

Edited by IHAVEGAS
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sbcman Looks for Range

sbcman

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I saw the OP's gun in question fit the box Saturday, which raises a whole new problem. At one club, the box won't allow fit. At this club, the box swallowed the gun whole.

Makes a guy wonder about boxes.

I shoot revo, which gets me out of all this box drama :roflol:

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jmbaccolyte Finally read the FAQs

jmbaccolyte

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Why shoot revo? I'm not criticizing, just curious, because semiautos fit my hands better, hold more rounds, are faster to reload, conceal better because they're narrower than a revo through the cylinder and usually have a much better trigger (the length of travel on a DAO trigger is without "redeeming social value" as the Supreme Court put it years ago).

Edited by jmbaccolyte
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sbcman Looks for Range

sbcman

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Why shoot revo? I'm not criticizing, just curious, because semiautos fit my hands better, hold more rounds, are faster to reload, conceal better because they're narrower than a revo through the cylinder and usually have a much better trigger (the length of travel on a DAO trigger is without "redeeming social value" as the Supreme Court put it years ago).

Good question. Here's my answer list:

1. I like them.

2. They are a challenge for me to shoot.

3. I get a devious sense of satisfaction from coming out ahead of those running semis in matches.

You can ask the op if #3 happens with any regularity.

To reply to some of your thoughts: 1.) Handgun fit to hand varies with person, revos "feel" just as good to me as any bottom feeder. 2.) They do hold more rounds 3.)Faster to reload? Depends on the shooter. Some guy once got off 12 shots with a reload in under 3 seconds with a revo. If you can do that with a bottom feeder, you're well on your way. 4.) Again, depends on a person's body. I'm a big guy, so revos conceal on me just as well as autos. Slimmer guys might find that revos don't conceal as easily 5.) Better trigger? Sure, if stock, after getting worked on, it's a wash.

As for trigger travel, consider this: even though a revolver has a longer trigger travel, they can shoot faster than semis.

BUT, if I was going to shoot semi, I would definitely look into an Eagle as it's clear most of them fit the IDPA box just fine (had to bring this back to the OP, LOL!)

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jmbaccolyte Finally read the FAQs

jmbaccolyte

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Bottom feeder? Ouch, that hurt.

...Some guy once got off 12 shots with a reload in under 3 seconds with a revo...

My semi holds more than 12 rounds, so I don't need a reload; but then I ain't Miculek either. By the way, I've heard that Jerry is fairly good with a semiauto too.

...As for trigger travel, consider this: even though a revolver has a longer trigger travel, they can shoot faster than semis...

It's probably not important outside of speed contests, but I don't think most people can shoot a revo as fast as a DA/SA semi or SAO semi, because of the difference in length of trigger travel. I've shot more than 11,000 rounds from a government issued DAO semiauto and personally I much prefer a good SAO trigger.

But we can still choose which "arm" we want to bear (at least in most states) and I respect your reasoning and right to choose, even if it doesn't fit in the box (lol).

Edited by jmbaccolyte
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ac4wordplay Looks for Range

ac4wordplay

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Technically speaking an auto has to cycle the slide. You can shoot a revo as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Thanks.

Yes, I understand that. But cyclic speeds of semi-auto handguns are what... something like 0.06 seconds (depending on firearm, ammo, etc.), aren't they? Who's trigger finger (and brain-finger circuitry) is quicker than this? I think I'm crazy fast when I get 0.11 splits.

Similar to the semi-auto requiring the slide to cycle (feed, trigger re-set, etc.), the revolver has a cylinder that must rotate. I would expect that a cylinder would have a minimum "cycle time" too, wouldn't it? Could a revolver run splits of 0.05? 0.01?

Respectfully,

ac

Mods: sorry for the thread drift - please address however you consider appropriate.

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sbcman Looks for Range

sbcman

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OK, you got me, I mainly shoot revolver just to get out of all this box drama :roflol:

That and I have trouble counting past 6. Also, IDPA is really fun game to me, nothing else. If I need defensive/combat training I'll have an M&P9 on my side.

My apologies on "Bottom Feeder", it must have been a Freudian slip. :goof: It's really a term of affection when coming from revo shooters.LOL Yes, most revo shooters are excellent semi shooters as well. The learning curve just isn't as steep, and it's kind of like putting on the training wheels to run them after you've gone a while with 6 and empty. In the interest of disclosure, I've hardly ever met a gun I didn't like and I for defensive purposes I carry a semi and a revo at the same time (don't know what camp that puts me in). I really prefer something of the long rifle species with a 30 caliber round if something was to go down.

As for a revo cranking them out faster than an automatic, it's just a matter of how the gun is made as waktasz mentioned above. Stock revolver return springs are usually 17lbs and need to push a trigger back forward somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4", then she's ready to rock again. Semi springs could be as heavy or lighter and have to return the length of the barrel. Two guys of equal skill in each platform will find the revolver to crank them out faster. It really has no value at all expect for what you mentioned and the "dude, that's cool" factor. You can google up Ed Mcgivern who proved that revo was faster and stayed with it.

Of course, all of this is dependent on the human more than the gun. I'm speaking in "all other things being equal" terms.

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