varminter22 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Unlike USPSA, .32 caliber is the minimum for ICORE. Does anyone actually use the .32 in ICORE competition? With the .32 H&R Mag, it seems it would be a bit difficult to make PF. The newer .327 Fed Mag would be easier to make PF. There isn't a lot of choice in suitable revolvers in .32 Mag or .327. But would it be a feasible/practical ICORE caliber IF a suitable revolver were available? (Perhaps like the S&W M627?) I'm a big fan of the .32 H&R Mag, especially in the Ruger Single Six. Its a great trail gun and does everything I need it to do on critters up to, and including, called coyotes. I did have a S&W Model 16 (K frame) .32 Mag. Wish I still had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) You still have to make a 120 PF. I'm sure that could be done with one of the various .32 cases availalble, if you disregard the current loading manuals and just make 'something' that works in a quality DA revolver. How many of those guns are out there?. How easy are the cases to acquire and how much do they cost? I shoot .38 LC, and guard them zealously.... although at the club I shoot at (Volusia, FL) we are real good about picking up brass and speedloaders while the scoring is done, and getting them back to the rightful owner. Which brings up another question... what kind of speedloaders are available fpr .32 if you choose to go Classic Division?... and are good moon clips available if you choose to go Limited or Open? As far as gaining any real 'competitive advantage' I can't really see a .32 being a better choice than a .38. And, the .38 componants and accessories are far easier to acquire. The gun is really only one componant of your ICORE gear. The rest has to work effectively if you are to be successfull. Sometimes it pays to look at the support items, instead of just the cartridge. I can't imagine a 120 PF .32 load being any softer in recoil, or more accurate, than a .38 LC/158 grain load I use and my six-inch Ruger GP-100 with 158 grain .38 LC loads has me currently in 1st Place in the Classic Division among FL shooters in the Postal Match. And, I think, overall, including Limited and Open, I am somewhere around 4th in FL in the Postal Match. You can do a lot with a .38, and all the accessories are readily available. LC cases (which the ejector stroke on my Ruger GP-100 clears completely from the chambers, just makes it better, and Starline has them.) make life a bit simplier than .38 Spl cases if you want to get 'outside the box'. Edited October 5, 2013 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) Making PF was a primary question. One would have to load the .32 Mag a bit warm. The .327 would make PF. Quality brass is available from Starline. A S&W M16 .32 Mag could easily be machined for moon clips. Moonclips, while not cheap, can be obtained from TK Custom. That said, there certainly are not a lot of options in .32 revolvers. Getting set up to shoot a .32 in ICORE is probably NOT worth the expense. I tend to agree the .38 caliber is probably optimum. I shoot .38 Short Colt in a M627. I was just wondering if there would be ANY advantages whatsoever to using a .32 caliber. ICORE rules allow .32 caliber, but has anyone used, or is using, a .32? Edited October 5, 2013 by varminter22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 If there were any advantages to a .32, don't you think some of the upper level shooters would be using it? Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I believe a few years back there was some 32's floating around that were 10 shot customs on the N frame. Haven't heard much about them lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 If there were any advantages to a .32, don't you think some of the upper level shooters would be using it? Just a thought Of course I've thought of that. As mentioned there aren't many widely available options. Thanks for your response(s), but that still doesn't opine on the question(s) presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I think the main advantage would be 2 extra shots in a 10 shot 627. There are 100 grain bullets for .32 so maybe 1250 or 1300 FPS with a comp would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 The rule is for a 32 magnum or larger revolver 1. All firearms used in ICORE matches must be revolvers with a .32 magnum caliber or greater and in sufficiently safe condition. All firearms are subject to inspection and approval by the Match Director or Range Officers. So it would take a magnum case in my way of thinking. Vic Maehearn (SP) used the 32 mag in a 9 shot configuration n an Astra frame. Kirby Goodman Built a 10 shot on an N Frame Smith. Both used moonclips. With the moonclips not available and minor things like the stages being 6 shot friendly, negated the 1 and 2 shot advantage over the 8 shot, but it still worked well on Steel Stages if you were prone to miss a few here or there. Maybe Kirby and or Vic could illuminate us on the subject. I'll see about inviting them to the Site. Later rdd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 6 neutral or 6 friendly dont matter, if there were a 10 shot n frame that had a load that would shoot a worthwhile group at 50 yards I would definitely use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I had to check because I wasn't sure, ICORE open does not have a capacity limit. Guaranteed though, if you show up at the IRC with a 10 shot 32 magnum and it appears to be an advantage(and it will be) someone will put up the rule change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrrhic3gun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 There is no advantage to using a .32 with eight shots or less since there are already revos with that capacity. Also, the accuracy of a .32 at the ranges that are normally shot at ICORE matches is not greater than a good .38. But, when there are nine or ten shots required from a box (with no mandatory reload) the grumbling begins. :^) Making minor with guns with cylinders made of modern materials is not a problem. Just don't expect to use lighter bullets in older guns (the pressure is above the SAAMI limit). I broke out my ten-shooter and started shooting it again about a year ago. I still get beat by the better shooters, but it does raise some eyebrows on new shooters. :^) Attached a pic. Kirby G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrrhic3gun Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 At least, I thought I attached a pic. :^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 At least, I thought I attached a pic. :^) I so want one...that is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 At least, I thought I attached a pic. :^) whoa. Cool what is it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Thanks, Kirby! That is VERY interesting. Would love to have one, but I suspect the expense might be overwhelming. Recoil must be negligible, eh?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Glad to see you here Kirby. I knew you could shed some light on the subject. Later rdd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanc Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 At least, I thought I attached a pic. :^) May I ask, did you do the machining and fabrication? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 C'mon Kirby. You gotta tell us more. Give us the whole history of that gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 Thanks, Kirby. That 10 shot .32 Mag is very intriguing! And prompts lots of questions - not the least of which is the expense of building one on a 627 frame. And: recoil? less than most of the various .38s? brass life? (since it would necessarily have to be "warmer" than the standard reloading manual maximum .32 load) reload speed? (smaller cartridge and more of 'em) No doubt it wouldn't be cheap. But it does sound interesting! Also wondering what .32 bullets you use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 You'd have to run a 115 grain bullet at over 1120 fps to make a safe 120 PF, which may exceed published loading data for .32 H&R Magnum (although not for the Ruger .327 Mag). It would also be a supersonic load, instead of the sub-sonic 158/38/760. Some shooters find that supersonic crack contributes to more fatigue over the course of a lengthy match than the sub-sonic loads. Recoil? Just a guess, but more than a 158/38.760 fps. It would depend on gun weight, and a comp might help. With ICORE COFs being 6 shot neutral, I have to wonder why? A significant expense for the gun, then obtaining 'non-standard' componants (especially moon clips, and maybe even bullets), and the only real advantage I see would be on steel courses if you miss... or maybe on some 32+round field courses where mandatory reloads are not required, and it might save you a few seconds on reloads. I have to wonder if there is truly an actual advantage to the effort... or, if one just wants a super nifty gun and can pay the freight, then why not. But, I doubt if it will move anyone into the Winner's Circle... except at smaller clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrrhic3gun Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 SeanC ... yep, I designed the cylinder and extractor and had it heat-treated and machined. Then I completed the project which included making the barrel, installing the new floating firing pin, modifying the hammer with a roller in place of the existing hammer-mounted pin. All these things used a new, higher bore axis to allow for the bigger hole pattern in the cylinder. Also, the frame was opened up a hair to accommodate the slightly bigger diameter cylinder. Other minor things are required, but you get the idea. 343 ... I was working with Charlie P. at RPM when the first eight-shot was designed and built on a Smith N frame Model28 there (Vic M. separately produced an 8-shot .38 and a 9-shot .32 on Astra frames). After I left there, I decided that the .32 H&R (which ICORE allowed) presented an opportunity to go one (or two) better. I think it was the '94 or '95 IRC in Montrose where I first tried it at a major match. The firing pin caused problems there, but after some teething problems, it has been a fun gun to shoot. varminter22 ... We'd have to ask someone better versed in physics to compare the recoil. It still makes the same basic power factor (over 120) that everyone has to make in ICORE. That is the momentum (mass times velocity)... I've always felt that kinetic energy (the integral of momentum in Calculus) is a waste of effort. To me, the recoil feels about the same as an equivalent weight revo shooting a minor 38 load. The dual ports seem to work some with the slower powders I use. Brass life...no problem. Interestingly, it does slowly stretch the cases over several firings. Reloads...no problem. I make my clips and the rounds don't flop around too much. I think I did a calculation years ago and discovered that the ratio of "chamber area" to metal in the area of the chambers is better than a .38, but maybe I was dreaming too. :^) Over the years, I've used from 110 to 160 grain bullets. Currently, I use 125's but I've recently completed some 135 grain molds to try. GOF ... yep, I'm a confirmed member of the JTPIC club (Just To Prove I Could). Yep, I've run a lot of 110grainers at 1100 (121 power factor) which is just under supersonic at most ranges. But, I've also shot up to 145 PF with heavier bullets. Shot 160 grainers at an IRC at Bakersfield years ago with no problems. Also, remember that I'm not limited to the OAL listed in most manuals with the .357 magnum length available to me in the N frame. And, yep like I mentioned in my earlier post, I still get beat by better shooters. Well, I didn't mean to write a book, but I think this answers most questions. K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Are copies of cylinder and extractor drawings for sale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrrhic3gun Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Toolguy, Give me a few days to scare them up. Have a rifle match tomorrow. I know they're in the safe somewhere. I'll send a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted October 13, 2013 Author Share Posted October 13, 2013 Many thanks, Kirby. VERY interesting, indeed. I too would like a copy of the cylinder and extractor drawings, if possible. Not sure how soon (or IF) I would be able to start such a project, but it sure does intrigue me. So, most of your .32 bullets you cast yourself? I'm not aware of any really-heavy-for-caliber bullets available commercially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Kirby, Thanx for sharing. It is real interesting the stuff you go through to innovate ideas that one can come up with. It was innovaters like you, Vic Maehern, Gene Marshal and Charlie P. that kept me interested in the whole game. Thanx Roger Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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