Quick 3 gun rule question...

[Dan Sierpina]

One thing I'd like to see, at matches like FNH, that uses "Skinny Sammys" is an indicator that is visible when the target is hit. That will allow the shooter to see something that they hit the target sufficiently to score, the RO's job becomes a little simpler. Even if the base had a deflector built in, that a bullet that hit too low, can't activate the indicator. It's not rocket science, just some added cost to the target.

The small "Colt Speed Plates" fall into this category also.

Still not perfect. You hit the base of those things and you will hear a *clang* and possibly even see some wiggle of the target. Hit it on the bottom edge of the scoring zone and you will hear a *clang* and see some wiggle of the target...

Flashers are another obvious candidate for easier scoring...unless a course of fire calls for them to be engaged multiple times. I've gotten hosed by re-engaging a flasher that, unlike the others in the array, hadn't stopped moving before the second pass. I swore I hit it, I saw it move, and...nobody called a hit but I kept going because I *saw* it. (Still my fault, of course, but that "incontrovertible visual feedback" played in to the problem.)

I agree it's not perfect, but, it's better than what they are now.

Kurt is right that the best target falls. A swinging target with an indicator would be next best.

[MarkCO]

I agree it's not perfect, but, it's better than what they are now.

Kurt is right that the best target falls. A swinging target with an indicator would be next best.

With 3 numbers in your USPSA membership number, you must have seen a lot of targets over the years.

Edited October 1, 2013 by MarkCO

[Dan Sierpina]

I agree it's not perfect, but, it's better than what they are now.

Kurt is right that the best target falls. A swinging target with an indicator would be next best.

With 3 numbers in your USPSA membership number, you must have seen a lot of targets over the years.

Mark,

I have. I hope to see even more. Given the different matches I've shot, I have a bunch too.

[mpeltier]

I really like flash targets. At the bigger matches ive been to that used them properly they seemed to have the best compromise of fairness to the competitor and ease of use for the range staff.

[Vlad]

NY State rifle match used to use a light strobe with a sensor on the back of the plate kinda like these http://flashtarget.com/store/

They used to work really well, providing visual feedback for both shooter and ROs. I dunno how often they broke, I didn't see them fail in the 2 or 3 matches I shot there.

[kurtm]

Two years ago at RM3G the batteries ran out in one of THE strobes on the long range stage. The R.O. wouldn't believe it because " it has worked for everyone before you guys". It seems a lot of good shooters could hit all the targets EXCEPT the 400 yard strobe target. At the end we pitched a bitch and they finally went down and hit it with a hammer ( cool new age test for a cool new age target I guess) . The whole squad got to reshoot, do you think that backed up the match? Well yes it did, but isn't,t technology cool? The real problem is IT WASNT WORKING WHEN WE GOT THERE! How many folks got totally hosed before we demanded it to be tested? Unknown because the R.O. said it worked great!

Yep strobes are the answer. Another match a bullet cut the wire to the flash. No one noticed until I became "that guy" and low and behold it wouldn't work. R.O. said, I just thought all these guys were bad shots! Outstanding!!!!! All these misses were 20 second penalties because they were over 100 yards.

The problem with all these "cool wizz-bang" target systems is no one wants to believe it when they break, and unless someone really bitches they can sit there broken for squad after squad. New shooters really get screwed, because they don't have the confidence that they are really hitting the broken target....no just give me gravity!!!!!!!

Edited October 2, 2013 by kurtm

[kurtm]

"Flash targets are about the best" (MGM type)

One windy day a shooter was banging away and a big gust of wind came down the canyon. The R.O. gave out a robust "HIT" when the shooter hadn't even broken a shot., the wind had moved the flash target . Funny, yet that shooter won the match over an equally talented shooter by exactly the time of that one "hit"

Do I sound like a skipping record? To make it fair, it has to fall! But it wont, because " it cant be done, it takes too much time, the logistics cant be handled, the horses are tired, you cant do that for a lot of shooters..."

[Vlad]

Kurt what you are telling me is that the right system doesn't exist, yet.

Because I've seen gravity fail.

Ever see a plate holder break? A post fail? A plate turn? A plate weld fail? When I was saying I don't trust gravity, I wasn't exactly kidding.

[Nuke8401]

New guy here, should keep my mouth shut but,

I guess wind has never blown over a falling plate and was considered a hit, or influenced the outcome of a match.

The last match I worked where we were calling hits on long range targets if nothing else was consistent from shooter to shooter.

If shooting a match on natural terrain I would guess falling plates/using bunkers would be less than optimal, stage 5 fnh.

You would think a bunch of smart shooters would use the best equipment available when cost allows no matter if it were new or old technology.

Kurtm should quit his day job and run all 3 gun matches

So I guess shooters will decide which matches they like and which ones they don't and I hope all shooters with constructive criticism will give their feedback to the MD.

I blame all my spelling errors on this stupid new fangled tablet and drinking too much last night, is it still night right?

Edited October 2, 2013 by Nuke8401

[Bryan 45]

I hate strobes. They all break.

That is all.

[RiggerJJ]

...softballs...they work by gravity, right?

Nope!

Edited October 2, 2013 by RiggerJJ

[MarkCO]

...softballs...

I don't care who you are, that is funny stuff right there.

[kurtm]

Sure plates can break, fail, do all those things, but they are fully constable. Is the plate up...yes, did you hit it, yes or no, will it fall if the calibration guy hits it?

Now we have I hit that, R.O....no you didn't, I know I did, R.O. , I didn't see it...so you have a miss...almost made for arguing.

Nuke, I used to run matches, it is to bad you weren't into 3-gun then as you would have seen natural terrain stages just like the one you are mentioning, done with falling steel.

Do none of you guys shoot USPS matches....wow, arbitratable falling steel, and it works real well. Why is it you don't think it will work for rifle targets?

[Nuke8401]

...softballs...

I don't care who you are, that is funny stuff right there.

I did run into a group of sick individuals who thought hanging golf balls with fishing line made good self indicating targets.

[kurtm]

Yes J.J. they do, if you hit them with the right ammo. No one told you to just shoot F.M.J.s at them, that was your choice. Anyone shooting hollow points or ballistic tips had no trouble at all.

[MarkCO]

Do none of you guys shoot USPS matches....wow, arbitratable falling steel, and it works real well. Why is it you don't think it will work for rifle targets?

Never managed to get to a USPS match...how does that work?

[Nuke8401]

.

Nuke, I used to run matches, it is to bad you weren't into 3-gun then as you would have seen natural terrain stages just like the one you are mentioning, done with falling steel.

Well I hope to travel to more matches in the future and hope I will have the opertuiny to shoot an possibly work matches designed as you describe.

Untill then I will volunteer for the matches I can and do everything I can to make the playing field the same for all shooters with the equipment used.

David

[kurtm]

Well MarkCo, if you get on the wrong squad it doesn't

[Doug H.]

Sure plates can break, fail, do all those things, but they are fully constable. Is the plate up...yes, did you hit it, yes or no, will it fall if the calibration guy hits it?

Now we have I hit that, R.O....no you didn't, I know I did, R.O. , I didn't see it...so you have a miss...almost made for arguing.

Nuke, I used to run matches, it is to bad you weren't into 3-gun then as you would have seen natural terrain stages just like the one you are mentioning, done with falling steel.

Do none of you guys shoot USPS matches....wow, arbitratable falling steel, and it works real well. Why is it you don't think it will work for rifle targets?

You are correct, having ROs call hits is not the optimum solution. Falling plates would be the best, no RO calling required but the problem is that many ranges have a common downrange area for several stages. Resetting the steel would require a cease fire on several ranges at once which would cause unreasonable delays. Even the LaRues are not optimal because they reset automatically and have often reset before the shooter finishes the stage and can't see for himself which ones he missed. Steel that falls, stays down and can be reset at long distance is best but the only reasonably priced target like that is the Rope Pull Rifle Target made by R&R. They may be used at the USPSA Multigun Nationals in 2014 after Pete Rensing saw them in action at the Northwest Multigun Challenge. I was standing next to him when he saw one shot for the first time and he exclaimed "Did that steel fall?" Properly calibrated they are the best solution to long range rifle steel.

Doug

[CraigS.]

Those R&R rope pulls are the best, at our monthly match we use them out to 400 yds(the max property size)

With 8"-12" plates they have been flawless ! Reset takes less than 1 minute for 8 targets 180-400yds out.

It's too bad more matches don't use these, my only complaint is your arms get a little tired rolling up the cords.

[Vlad]

Do you have a link to these targets?

[mpeltier]

"Flash targets are about the best" (MGM type)

One windy day a shooter was banging away and a big gust of wind came down the canyon. The R.O. gave out a robust "HIT" when the shooter hadn't even broken a shot., the wind had moved the flash target . Funny, yet that shooter won the match over an equally talented shooter by exactly the time of that one "hit"

Do I sound like a skipping record? To make it fair, it has to fall! But it wont, because " it cant be done, it takes too much time, the logistics cant be handled, the horses are tired, you cant do that for a lot of shooters..."

So you think flash targets are best or falling targets? :-)

[bigbrowndog]

Doug all it takes is coordination and a desire to do what is right for the competitor not what is EASY. At the European rifle championships in Norway, 3 ranges shared a common impact area with both steel and paper targets from 10yds to 250ish. All stages were shot, shutdown, and reset, with all targets taped repainted and scored and ZERO delays in the match. All of this for aprox 250-300 shooters maybe more I can't recall exactly. Oh and the shooters didn't do any of it, BTW!!

Vlad, you said the type of terrain dictated how things need to be reset, I'm sorry but you're wrong. The MD/RM dictates where targets should be set, and if terrain doesn't allow for rapid reset then don't put the targets there, its really simple. Just because you have valleys and gulleys and mountains doesn't mean targets should be put on them, across them, or in them.

Many MD's lately have tried to invite or entice international competitors to "come to America" shoot the "greatest matches ever", why would they want to if they have to pay soooo much money AND work their butts off as well, when they can shoot IMHO, better stages, better matches, logistically speaking, and enjoy sitting on their butts and just shooting. For what we pay in ammo, hotel, gas, and entry fees we can buy a better prize than what we would get off a prize table.

It seems the only way people will understand what Kurt and I are talking about is to go and shoot an IPSC match, but why would you when you've got the "greatest matches ever" right here, .........right!!! I for one, although I'm sure Kurt feels the same way, am done trying to convince people there is a better way, a right way!! perhaps we are getting exactly what we deserve,.....mediocrity!!

Trapr

[kurtm]

Ahhh a brother heretic!!

Like the R+R a lot!!

Tired of arguing with people who don't have any background in what we are discussing. Bye!

[Vlad]

Vlad, you said the type of terrain dictated how things need to be reset, I'm sorry but you're wrong. The MD/RM dictates where targets should be set, and if terrain doesn't allow for rapid reset then don't put the targets there, its really simple. Just because you have valleys and gulleys and mountains doesn't mean targets should be put on them, across them, or in them.

I alluded to this earlier, what you and Kurt are indirectly saying is that you should let a method of reset dictate the stage design and limit what you can do on a given range with given resources. I don't understand that logic, it seems constricting.

Again, I'm not sure where the notion of "you just can't accept it can be done better" is coming from, seeing I'm in full agreement that there is space for improvement. I find it odd that the two of you are taking the stance that there is only one true way of fixing a problem. It narrows the actual space of solutions.

As far as I can determine the position is that there is ONLY ONE SINGLE TRUE WAY of fixing the issue of target calling, it is the same single way used for 100 years, and there is no room for a better newer solution.

I truly respect the experience you guys have, but this position seems more like religion then a solution. It seems to me to be just as narrowly locked into a single way of thinking as I'm being accused of.