kurtm Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Midget,s in a bunker? Come on Mark!!! REALLY??????? EVEVERYONE knows that you just need a Lincoln Log home and those are low cost and quick to set up and don't even cost much......think garage sales! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Midget,s in a bunker? Come on Mark!!! REALLY??????? EVEVERYONE knows that you just need a Lincoln Log home and those are low cost and quick to set up and don't even cost much......think garage sales! There you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) I'm with Kurt; the self-resetting targets that are ubiquitous in our sport are far from perfect. I know my ROs have even made bad calls on LaRues! I think, however, that errors go in the shooter's favor more often than against them because ROs are hair-trigger set to call "HIT" when they see even the slightest bobble or flash of shadow. Still, one thing I have learned from many, many years ROing 3-Gun matches is that, no matter what target system you come up with, some shooters will inevitably still be "hitting the target and it's not working". Edited September 30, 2013 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Plug a LaRue with a 55gr FMJ out of a 18" or shorter barrel and it's 50-50 on whether it's going over. I was watching the impacts in my scope the first year of Fallen Brethren, it was rather frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Scope? Isn't that a mouth wash? Why are you looking at targets through a bottle of mouth wash? I do admire the dedication to oral hygiene though! On a frivolous note how far away are we talking here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Those were 100-200 yds. It was a monsoon, and they may very well have settled wrong, but it happened to half the squad and I haven't had a problem again since I started clobbering them with 75s. We were all well hygienated that day...like shooting in the shower, and no not that kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Yep a M116 75mm pack howitzer will definitely take down a LaRue at those ranges and perhaps a bit further. Good call on clobbering them with 75,s! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobS761 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 You know, I may be putting my nose where it doesn't belong, but I have shot 1000 yard matches and gotten almost immediate feedback. And that was paper targets. With the correct setup, long range can be scored effectively and quickly. Unfortunately, said setup tends to be kinda permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 M2 ball at 50 yards works pretty good too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 BobS761 of course your ideas are welcome! The more ways we look at this the more ways we will have to "re-learned it Matter of fact we used a hi-power range once...well more than once. We put up 12"X12" plates at the butts and ran the stage off to the side in the ditch and hill side at around 400 m. We used black targete, dusted the area behind them with quick lime so the targets were easy to see and you could tell where you were missing. 12 targets with 4 positions, BUT, you could only fire 5 rounds from any one position. We had a guy down in the target pits and at the radio call walked out and re-set the 12 pieces of steel painted them and returned to cover. Took less than the AUGUST 3 minutes that seems to be required and we ran 250 shooters through it in 2 1/2 days. Now how can that be??? Visible targets, natural terrain, painted for each shooter, and ALL STEEL FELL......impossible, impossible, impossible. Like I said stage planning and knowing where to put stages is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Ok who is volunteering to dig bunkers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 See Vladimir you and I were so busy kibbutzing that we missed MarCo,s solution...Midgets in Lincoln log bunkers. Got a field with a big old boulder in the middle? Long range stage. Got a place with a deep ravine.. long range stage. Place where someone can be covered by a berm...long range stage. YES you do need a few more match staff, but that is mearly logistics. Got a wide open field with a road...4-wheeler! Be inventive, but obey gravity!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Ah those minor logistics, I knew I was missing the easy part somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) I think....oh wait, that is too forceful, I "feel" that no matter what , you don't "feel" this can be done, so the simple answer is don't . If you cant scare up 3-4 extra / spare friends to help put on a "world class match" once a year you need to work on your people skills....just like me Edited October 1, 2013 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) I dunno Kurt, I don't run the match, I just work it as a cog, talk to Larry and Howard about finding more staff. It should be pointed out that they had like 80 or so this year and shooters didn't have to reset a single piece of steel or tape a paper target, but I'm sure they'll be glad to hear your suggestions. I do think most people who shot the match rather liked it. Edited October 1, 2013 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Larry is well aware of what I have been talking about, and like you thinks it can't be done. Just think of this, shooters never taped or re-set steel all those years at S.O.F. and never have I seen them have to work over seas either. European Rifle championships bring in 250-300 shooters, usually 21 stages over 4 days and all I had to do was shoot and carry my own gear, all paper and falling steel, same with Nordic Rifle Championships! Heres an idea, shooters tape and re-set the close stuff and those 80+match staff reset the longer range falling steel. Do you think that would have killed all the fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 BTW Vlad, I have run matches, I was one of 4 guys that Started Rocky Mountain 3-Gun. I was one of the two brothers that put on the last two S.O.F. matches for Bob Brown. Trap Swanson and I put on the High Plains Carbine Challenge, and in each and everyone of those matches the rifle steel fell down, it never backed up, and it seemed that folks had a good time, although you never know because on the inter-web EVERY match is the best one people ever attended. I am just curious why it worked so well as recently as two years ago, why it is next to impossible today in the U.S.? Do you realise how much cheaper a 12" plate sitting a a piece of pipe is compared to a flash target? Hell you could HIRE your reset crew for what you would save on just 10 flash targets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Clearly I don't doubt your experience, it was never a question, which is why I'm actually trying to understand your point of view on the issue. I will however point out that there are some differences between a rifle only match and a 3 gun match, for one there isn't a lot of fapping around clearing and staging guns. Looking at the video's of the Nordic match and the Euro championship, it seems to me that most stages were rather quick low round count, limited movement stages. I'm not saying that can't be fun, but it seems to me to be a different flavor. I'm sure you can design and entire very fun match completely around the method of reset you suggest, but I wonder if that point you are limiting what you can do with the match because of your chosen reset model. As for shooters resetting, that fine, but one of the things that brings back is the possibility of arguments over early taped targets, and the like. I'm also wondering why you are opposed to more modern methods? We are in agreement that RO's calling hits is imperfect, but I'd suggest that your methods were also used about 100 years ago, admittedly successfully. I am aware that technology done poorly can fail, but I don't drive a horse to work anymore, and my modern car works pretty well. I are you really saying and this day and age we can figure out a reliable electronic scoring method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 BTW, I don't know the history of this, why did SOF stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 We wouldn't be having this conversation, if the modern solution was working now would we! There are still big long conversations with R.O.s There are still unpainted targets for shooters to hunt for and there still are target systems that fail. Gravity works even in the modern world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Which one is more important, painting for every shooter or correct hit calls? Would you settle for painting every squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Last time I saw it done no one needed to call "correct hits" when the target fell down when it with a bullet, but I will check on that for you. I will accept paint for every squad and non magnified shooters go first, that happens time to time, but only if you accept the fact that sometimes the R.O. is looking at the wrong target and doesn't see your first 3-4 hits and your stage winning run drops to 12 or 13th place. Now I know you will go for that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Yup, as I've said it is a problem that needs correcting. Of course, I don't share your optimism for simple gravity, if for no other reason that I live in NJ. If we can't f'it up, we can legislated against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Well like they say Vlad.....there is no gravity, the earth sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 One thing I'd like to see, at matches like FNH, that uses "Skinny Sammys" is an indicator that is visible when the target is hit. That will allow the shooter to see something that they hit the target sufficiently to score, the RO's job becomes a little simpler. Even if the base had a deflector built in, that a bullet that hit too low, can't activate the indicator. It's not rocket science, just some added cost to the target. The small "Colt Speed Plates" fall into this category also. Still not perfect. You hit the base of those things and you will hear a *clang* and possibly even see some wiggle of the target. Hit it on the bottom edge of the scoring zone and you will hear a *clang* and see some wiggle of the target... Flashers are another obvious candidate for easier scoring...unless a course of fire calls for them to be engaged multiple times. I've gotten hosed by re-engaging a flasher that, unlike the others in the array, hadn't stopped moving before the second pass. I swore I hit it, I saw it move, and...nobody called a hit but I kept going because I *saw* it. (Still my fault, of course, but that "incontrovertible visual feedback" played in to the problem.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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