Quick 3 gun rule question...

[mpeltier]

Agree Mark. The solution at FNH was 2 to 3 ROs, sometimes 4, calling hits. If one called a hit, it WAS deemed to be hit. If you watch some videos, you can hear multiple voices in unison calling hit. Those ROs did a great job calling the hits, communicating with each other where the shooter was on the course of fire and were very consistent.

We had a few competitors who got a little frazzled by the clock RO communicating to the ROs on binos where the shooter was moving to, but overall, it was the best method I have seen yet for calling hits on steel.

That is how we do it at our local club on the long range stage. We have never had a controversy over hit/missed steel.

[MarkCO]

That is how we do it at our local club on the long range stage. We have never had a controversy over hit/missed steel.

I should have guessed you would be on top of that.

[mpeltier]

That is how we do it at our local club on the long range stage. We have never had a controversy over hit/missed steel.

I should have guessed you would be on top of that.

I dont know the origin of that practice at our range. They were doin it that way before I started shooting there 12 years ago. A couple of the guys traveled to some of the few big tournaments around back then and it may have been adopted by that experience. I think much of what we do there has evolved that way.

[kurtm]

I saw a MUCH better system used many times. It has long fallen by the way side, except overseas, but used to be the norm, like at the old S.O.F match............ the steel fell down, and no one needed to say a word.

[MarkCO]

It might be better for some stages, but unless you have some midgets in bunkers in your pocket, how do you turn a stage every 3 minutes with 8 targets from 125 to 400 yards? Usain Bolt x 8, or 8 Dirt bikes?

[Bryan 45]

It might be better for some stages, but unless you have some midgets in bunkers in your pocket, how do you turn a stage every 3 minutes with 8 targets from 125 to 400 yards? Usain Bolt x 8, or 8 Dirt bikes?

Come on, Mark, be reasonable. 8 dirt bikes? You're going to have to wait another 5 minutes for the dust cloud to clear.

[Vlad]

Larue's resetting targets? A bit spendy though.

The modern answer is electronic sensors on the back of targets. Probably.

[Bryan 45]

I like the MGM Recon resetting target better than Larues.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Since there is no commonality in 3 gun rules with Outlaw 3 gun matches or an official RO course like USPSA it all depends on the individual RO.

The best bet if your having an issue such as this on the clock is to ask the RO what's going on.

[kurtm]

Mark, since you never shot S.O.F. and you have never been over seas to see these wonders, I will give you a pass on your sarcastic remarks. You do remind me of someone who reverently believes the world is flat.

Not only are we talking about 8 measly pieces of steel, I have seen up to 8 paper targets at those ranges PLUS the steel be reset and taped in reasonable reset times, with both the methods you alluded to, although I would hardly call most northern Europeans midgets, and even they have 4 wheelers. Matter of fact those systems were used at the first two Rocky Mountain 3-gun matches, but like so many say....the past is a different country and they do things differently there.

[bigbrowndog]

If anyone wants to see how a well run practical rifle match can be pulled off, with, OMG!!!

All steel falling, all steel painted for every shooter, and paper beyond 50yds out to 300.

I invite you to attend the Nordic rifle championships in Finland next year.

[Brian Payne]

One of the more enjoyable stages I can remember was at the '07 USPSA Multi-gun Nationals in Tulsa. Long range rifle on paper at around 325 yrds. It was kind of cool shooting at a target that gives no feedback until it is scored. It was a good test of your confidence (or lack there of). Reset was by ATV and the RO's really had to work their butts off to keep the turnaround short but it was a cool part of the stage.

[outerlimits]

R & R knockdown plates. You can re-set them via cable out to 400 yds.

[Nuke8401]

Looks like there were about 325 shooters this year at FNH. If you take out 100 for RO/staff that leaves 275 to shoot over 2 1/2 days or 55 shooters per half day. On stage 5 it was common to be be letting the on deck shooter take a sight picture when the 180 second par timer sounded from the last shooter's start and the on deck shooter could not take a sight picture until the range was clear/reset. So these matches (SOF and others discussed above) with distant steel that had to be reset; how many shooters over how much time? And how many steel? FNH stage 5 had 8 steel from about 100 to 325 yds.

[Stlhead]

We live in a time when instant wireless communication is the norm nearly anyplace on earth. Literally thousands of human hearts are transplanted every year. We have harnessed the power of the atom for fun and profit. Doug Hartley and Scott Hawkins can run a 3 gun match that includes falling steel long range rifle targets in an orderly and time efficient manner. It can be done, but only If the will to do it is there. As always, people can complain about having conversations with range officers on the clock, or they can demand changes and help implement them. The R&R reseting plate racks are an excellent example of one possible solution as are the MGM RECON targets or the Larue targets. There are some smart people who enjoy this sport, this can be addressed.

[kurtm]

I am going to have to go ahead and disagree with my friend Sean....it isn't that this needs to be "addressed" it is more like it needs to be "re-learned"!!!

[Vlad]

So Kurt, exactly what procedure do you suggest? Not everyone is fortune to have your practical experience, so instead of "there are better ways, I've seen them", could you please clue us younger folks in on exactly how those methods are used in a match and what the reset time is like.

[kurtm]

S.O.F did indeed have down range steel setters, as did The original R.M.3-G. Over seas they employ 4 wheelers to run down a couple guys who tape and re-set and paint. Nothing fancy, but it works and very well.

[Vlad]

S.O.F did indeed have down range steel setters, as did The original R.M.3-G. Over seas they employ 4 wheelers to run down a couple guys who tape and re-set and paint. Nothing fancy, but it works and very well.

Fair enough.

I assume the SOF range had some form of bunkers down range? It seems to me that not every range can do that (and Peacemaker less then most seeing how it is basically some valleys and some mountains).

The 4 wheeler thing .. how flat is the range and how fast are they driving? Again looking at FNH and Peacemaker, and lets stay stage 5 this year. The way the targets were laid out, I would say it would have taken a minimum of 1000 yards of travel to reset all the steel targets, and realistically due to the terrain and hills more like a mile. Even at a rather suicidal 30mph that would be about 2min not counting the actual resetting, acceleration, mounting and dismounting, and the occasional ambulance ride for broken RO's after 4-5 days of random accidents. Lets say this whole thing only adds 2 minutes per shooter to the reset process.

325 shooters times 2min is nearly 11 hours added to the match.

Now, that is the easy math. The much harder math comes in when you have to syncronize 2 different stages because 5 and 6 shared a notion of downrange and sending people down one of them while the other was still shooting would have been crazy. In fact that problem would have been true with bunkers too, assuming there were .. 12-13 bunkers dug into the hill side to cover all the targets.

I'm not saying there are not better ways, but I'd be inclined to say that remote controlled targets would be the smarter play, although a bit more expensive. I say this as someone who got burned by targets not being called after 3 clear (to me through a scope) hits: I would rather have some poor calls then RO's running up and down the range dogging friendly fire.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Vlad

[kurtm]

You are are right it cant be done!!! What was I thinking!!!

S.O.F was done in the hills behind Las Vegas and limited shooters to a Meer 250, which filled every year. Rocky Mountain 3-Gun is in very flat Terrain in the Rocky Mountains at 7200' above sea level, and everyone know Europe is flat! Besides I am sure S.O.F. killed off at least 6-7 re-setters a year!

Edited September 30, 2013 by kurtm

[Vlad]

You are are right it cant be done!

Come on, thats not what I said. Personally I'm always interested in making things more efficient, so if you really think there is a way to do things better, I'll listen.

However I'm referring to a specific case and a specific range and a specific match and specific stages. Just because I'm doubting that the methods you have suggested would have worked under the circumstances, it doesn't mean things can't be improved, but take a look at the videos posted of stage 5 and 6, keep in mind they are side by side so fire has to be checked on both for someone to get downhill, and calculate the time it would have taken.

[kurtm]

If your paradigm is only one stage at one match of course it wont work. In Norway there were 3 stages of rifle with paper and steel out to 300m with most targets past the 150m Mark, side by side. They shot at the same time, cleared at the same time and sent re-setters down and back all in around 7 min. Per shooter, in very rugged terrain. But I am constantly told this cant be done, and as long as "it cant be done" rules match production here in the U.S. today, you will have to keep having chats on the clock with R.O.s who may or may not be doing their job for the first time.

Edited September 30, 2013 by kurtm

[Vlad]

Kurt, how many shooters were in that match? Again, seriously trying to figure this out.

Lets say the FNH has 250 people over 3 days (assuming 100 staff shooting before) and I'm being very forgiving with these numbers.

250 shooters x 7min = nearly 30h. Divide that over 3 days and you are looking at 10h of shooting and resetting. This assumes, no breaks for the RO's, no walk through, no lunch breaks, no DQs, no RM calls, every squad is on time, no waiting for the fog to burn off, everything flawless. Add 10min per squad for walk through and you now out of daylight.

I think it is a bit disingenuous to say my paradigm for one specific match is broken, and then ignore that specifics of that match and say because it works for some other specific matches it should work everywhere.

Those stages were probably around 4min turnaround time.

That said, I do think it can be done better, because the technology is a better then cheaper then it was in the days of the SOF matches.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Vlad

[kurtm]

Your example is one specific.match, my experience is over the course of 25 separate matches that have been run "that" way in all types of terrain. Stage design and stage planning play a huge part in it, but my " impossible" paradigm used to be the norm.You can discount it, you can ignore it, you can say it doesn't work, but it does, even if you haven't seen it. Think of it! Even without high tech guaranteed to break fancy target systems! Just a simple plate on a stand!

[MarkCO]

Vlad, while I admire your tenacity, at some point, it is better to learn what you can and move on.

I have learned a lot from Kurt (and many others) over the years, but at some point we all have our ways we prefer. Look at how Kurt chastised me for daring to ask how a stage can be turned in 3 minutes, which is about what stage 5 and 6 were doing at FNH, with his preferred method. I don't take it personally, but try to see if there is a nugget of truth in the pile. Also realize that Kurt likes to shoot irons, and the feedback to him as the shooter is tougher than for the guys with optics, even 1x. Conversations on the clock are awful, on that I totally agree with Kurt.

It comes down to time and money, go low tech with lots of time, and fewer shooters or high tech with more shooters and more cost to get er done.