Quick 3 gun rule question...

[Panic Flinch]

Hi guys....quick question and hopefully you can save me 30 minutes of research.

FN 3Gun match...using rifle...6 targets....dispersed on the hillside in banks of 2 steel...2 steel...1 steel...1 steel. Shooter moves through all the steel left to right, but misses the very first far left steel popper. After the array, he comes back to it. But instead of shooting at the first piece of steel...he mistakenly shoots at the second piece (they are close together).

He hits the second piece of steel several times, but RO's do not call hits on it. Presumably because he has already hit it and is shooting at the wrong target. Of course they do not say "hey buddy, you need to shoot the one to the left of the one you are hitting" as this would be coaching. Or is it?

So here is the question..Should they tell the shooter he has already hit the one he is shooting at? Should they make the shooter aware that it is the far left target he should be shooting at?

Are the RO's wrong for not calling hits on the target that he hit already? Or should they just be silent.

How many times should they let the shooter continue hitting steel without calling a hit...even if it is an extra hit?

As I watched this play out...I was thinking if I was an RO it would be very hard for me NOT to tell the shooter he is trying to make up the wrong target.

Your thoughts?.... and thanks for saving me some research.

[Vlad]

I'd think the right answer is to call every hit, and if the shooter forgets to engage one that is his problem.

[toothandnail]

I would call the hits, but unless the shooter asks , I do not volunteer info.

[Nuke8401]

I ran many shooters through stage 5 at the FNH match and only one shooter, a junior, failed to hit a long range target but came back and engaged and hit a different long range target he previously hit thinking it was the one he missed (left colt=hit twice & left skinny=engaged but not hit). While I was ROing our spotters called "hit" each time a shooter hit a piece of steel no matter if they had already engaged/hit the steel. It was all I could do not to coach him, but I did not.

[Mike P]

If the target had already been hit, I would not call a hit again.

[Bryan 45]

It would all depend on the instructions I received as an RO from the Range Master.

Most of my major match experience as an RO comes from the Blue Ridge. Here, we're instructed to give the shooter enough rope to hang themselves, then give a bit of assistance. If this same thing occured at BRM3G, I would calmly inform the shooter that they had already engaged and hit that target. If the shooter spent a few seconds trying to figure out which target had not yet been hit, I would also offer assistance to get them on target.

But, I have not worked the FNH match, and do not know what instructions the ROs were given.

[Panic Flinch]

Thanks for the replies...Seems the Range Master is in control of this.

Follow up question......

If during a stage (timmer running) a shooter asks an RO..."Have I engaged all the targets?" Is the RO in violation if he or she gives a yes or no answer to this question?

[Onagoth]

IMO, once the timer goes off, the RO should not be talking to the shooter unless there is a safety issue.

ROs cannot help people go through a CoF, and that includes identifying unhit targets. It's upto the shooter to remember that.

[toothandnail]

I will answer , either yes or no, let the shooter look around in bewilderment for a while,

then IF they ask about a SPECIFIC target , again answer yes or no,

IF they are still lost and ask for specifics, I will then tell them,

I figure by this time IF they shoot again they have done more HARM than good to their score.

BTW , I only shoot/RO outlaw matches.

Edited September 26, 2013 by toothandnail

[Nuke8401]

If during a stage (timmer running) a shooter asks an RO..."Have I engaged all the targets?" Is the RO in violation if he or she gives a yes or no answer to this question?

Our stage brief included: "the only words the RO will say to you (the shooter) is "hit" or stop". So our answer was a blank stare.

My view is that coaching changes or has the ability to change the outcome/finish order of the match. That alone is reason enough for me not to coach or be coached not to mention at a major match like the FNH the prize table is based on finish order. Now a local match with new shooter(s) and no prizes, I would most likely coach.

[StealthyBlagga]

If during a stage (timmer running) a shooter asks an RO..."Have I engaged all the targets?" Is the RO in violation if he or she gives a yes or no answer to this question?

Our stage brief included: "the only words the RO will say to you (the shooter) is "hit" or stop". So our answer was a blank stare.

My view is that coaching changes or has the ability to change the outcome/finish order of the match. That alone is reason enough for me not to coach or be coached not to mention at a major match like the FNH the prize table is based on finish order. Now a local match with new shooter(s) and no prizes, I would most likely coach.

THIS. The RO is there to ensure a safe and equitable event, not to hold the competitor's hands.

At a major match, they should NEVER be answering these kinds of questions. I would only call HIT once for each targets... if there are 6 targets, I will call HIT up to 6 times only.

Now, for a local match, and especially for a new shooter, coaching can be OK f allowed by the rules and RM.

[wdlong1]

I have been told before that I messed a target that I shot at and moved on past. "second from left" or something like that was the instruction from the RO. That was at the ozarks match a few years ago. The RO's there had their own set of rules....

I have always liked that part about 3 gun...that it wasn't as crazy about rules as USPSA. If you asked the RO a question and then acted upon his response, chances are that the previous poster was right, you are already out of the running anyway. I have never been a real contender to the point that a few seconds and a little help from an RO ever made much of a difference anyway though.

[ClutchUSMC]

I do not call hit if they are reengaging a target. I only call hit when they hit a target for score. That way it gives the shooter at least a chance to realize their error.

If there are 6 targets out there and you call hit 6 times, even if I shoot the same one 6 times, you're going to have a hard time giving me any penalties. For starters I'm going to point out that you called hit and when the RM comes over and ask you're going to have a hard time explaining why you called 6 hits and only want to count one for score.

But as Bryan said, it all really comes back to what you were told to do by the MD/RM before the match.

[Stlhead]

If the steel falls there is no reason to call hits, if not then the RO needs to offer a little more feedback than a blank stare. It is bad enough that the hits are judgement calls, the idea that not telling the shooter that you think he skipped a target and did not hit it is going to affect the outcome of the match more than the number of hits that are not scored as hits or non-hits that are scored as hits is laughable. All of the fervor over the coaching and consistency of clay targets seems very misplaced in our sport until all steel falls to score.

[fiddler]

I have been at matches where the RO will call hits as 'Hit 1', 'Hit 2'. 'Hit3' would mean you have hit it more than you needed to, assuming two hits required per target.

At my level there is NO amount of coaching that would give me an unfair advantage over skilled competitors. Any RO advice that keeps me on track and helps me learn and have more fun is greatly appreciated.

[MarkCO]

Without going into match specifics, which is prohibited on Enos, scored hits should be called if that is what is in the stage description and or the directions provided to match staff.

Coaching by competitors is a No-no, by match staff, even more of a no-no.

If you have a further question, feel free to send me a PM or email.

Edited September 26, 2013 by MarkCO

[ac4wordplay]

...

At my level there is NO amount of coaching that would give me an unfair advantage over skilled competitors. ...

But don't you think that receiving coaching would give you an advantage over similarly skilled competitors? (That is, competitors with a skill level similar to your own, who don't receive coaching.)

[CraigS.]

Another reason not to coach is a poor description of the target location by the RO, which in turn can make matters worse

causeing greater confusion for the shooter and can be used as a argument for a reshoot.

[Panic Flinch]

Thanks...I learned something here. If I hit a piece of steel continually and I don't hear "hit", it means I have already hit the steel and I should be looking for another. Unless, it is the opinion of the RO that the "hits" were misses....then we are in a tail spin.

I like the idea of calling all hits on steel...even if they have already been hit. If the shooter passes one, it's on him.

Also, if a shooter believes he is on his last piece of steel and he continually hits it and the RO is silent....the RO is keeping the clock running so to speak. BTW...I love the RO's....you guys and gals work real hard and are great and I'm not bashing...just giving the example for claification of all.

Thanks for the replies and I'll keep them in my tool box.

[MarkCO]

Thanks...I learned something here. If I hit a piece of steel continually and I don't hear "hit", it means I have already hit the steel and I should be looking for another. Unless, it is the opinion of the RO that the "hits" were misses....then we are in a tail spin.

And that is exactly what happened to your friendly Rangemaster. I was none too pleased, but the ROs did exactly what they were told to do.

[Dan Sierpina]

One thing I'd like to see, at matches like FNH, that uses "Skinny Sammys" is an indicator that is visible when the target is hit. That will allow the shooter to see something that they hit the target sufficiently to score, the RO's job becomes a little simpler. Even if the base had a deflector built in, that a bullet that hit too low, can't activate the indicator. It's not rocket science, just some added cost to the target.

The small "Colt Speed Plates" fall into this category also.

[bigbrowndog]

Just read one of my tag lines!!

ROs should not be there to score targets on the clock, they are there for safety

[MarkCO]

One thing I'd like to see, at matches like FNH, that uses "Skinny Sammys" is an indicator that is visible when the target is hit. That will allow the shooter to see something that they hit the target sufficiently to score, the RO's job becomes a little simpler. Even if the base had a deflector built in, that a bullet that hit too low, can't activate the indicator. It's not rocket science, just some added cost to the target.

The small "Colt Speed Plates" fall into this category also.

Send Larry a note. Pretty sure he already has some beneficial changes included for 2014. He does listen and make improvements.

[mpeltier]

Just read one of my tag lines!!

ROs should not be there to score targets on the clock, they are there for safety

I agree, but it can be a double ddged sword. Some stages at some matches the RO does call hits and my opinion is you either call every hit or dont call any. Otherwise it causes more confusion and i wouldnt blame a competitor for bieng pissed off at an RO who only called the hits he felt like.

[MarkCO]

Agree Mark. The solution at FNH was 2 to 3 ROs, sometimes 4, calling hits. If one called a hit, it WAS deemed to be hit. If you watch some videos, you can hear multiple voices in unison calling hit. Those ROs did a great job calling the hits, communicating with each other where the shooter was on the course of fire and were very consistent.

We had a few competitors who got a little frazzled by the clock RO communicating to the ROs on binos where the shooter was moving to, but overall, it was the best method I have seen yet for calling hits on steel.