3 gun sucking away uspsa shooters?

[P.E. Kelley]

I am seeing something odd within some of these posts and elsewhere on this forum.

Did any of the Top Guys or "Pros" just wake up one day...as Pros?

Did they not come from "the back bone" of the sport? Were they not once "regular Joe's"?

[beltjones]

I am seeing something odd within some of these posts and elsewhere on this forum.

Did any of the Top Guys or "Pros" just wake up one day...as Pros?

Did they not come from "the back bone" of the sport? Were they not once "regular Joe's"?

I don't know if you meant for that to be a poem, but it's a pretty good one.

[Rob01]

Yeah Pat I recently got into something similar with a guy on another forum. Where I am a newb in the 3 gun/USPSA I am an accomplished sniper competitor. This guy was saying how "regular guys" who work and pay bills can't get into some matches and had to pay to go to matches unlike "sponsored gamers". I had to laugh as I was coming off my 72 hour work shift(24 hours OT between two 24 hour shifts). People seem to think if you have a name of a company on your shirt you then have a 100% full paid to play pass. I wish. Very, very few people fall into that class.

Trying to play the divide and conquer with "regular guys" and people who have some sponsors does nothing but cause hate and discontent between people who all do this for the fun of shooting. If you want sponsors then work hard and get some. No company will come and beat down your door to give you stuff. Make it happen.

[latech15]

I am seeing something odd within some of these posts and elsewhere on this forum.

Did any of the Top Guys or "Pros" just wake up one day...as Pros?

Did they not come from "the back bone" of the sport? Were they not once "regular Joe's"?

From what I see, there are more people who "woke up as pros" in three gun than USPSA.

Not to take anything away from you, Pat.

[MarkCO]

I am seeing something odd within some of these posts and elsewhere on this forum.

Did any of the Top Guys or "Pros" just wake up one day...as Pros?

Did they not come from "the back bone" of the sport? Were they not once "regular Joe's"?

From what I see, there are more people who "woke up as pros" in three gun than USPSA.

Not to take anything away from you, Pat.

Rather short sighted. Every top 3Gunner I know either worked their way up through the ranks or came in as a very accomplished pistol shooter. Some of the "top" pistol shooters have tried 3Gun and gotten a pretty decent dose of humble pie. Those that have stuck with it have progressed. The amount of time and effort to excel at 3Gun is significant!

As for the "prize table" being important or not, it depends on the person. To ignore the fact that $500, or $1000 or $2000 in winnings does not help to offset the cost of this sport is also short sighted. The generosity of the sponsors is appreciated and helpful. That is one reason I will not buy product, gear or services from companies that do not support the shooting sports. I have tried a lot of products I have won that I never would have otherwise. Many of those then get recommended to local shooters, LE, etc. that I have contact with. The vast majority of matches, the "match fee" goes to support targets, staff and expenses, and that amount is the same for every shooter, call that the flat tax. The prizes are donated by the sponsors, so there is no "tax" on the average guys to pay the top guys.

[BillR1]

All of this discussion makes me appreciate even more the way "other sports" work the prize table. The division/match winners already get the accolades and the trophies. Donated prizes from sponsors should be available equally to all via a drawing. Knowing you have a chance at a nice prize even if you didn't shoot particularly well that day makes the attendance more worth your time IMO.

[steviesterno]

I really liked how they did prizes for GSSF matches. If you win a division and catergory, you get a gun. Unless you already won a different division. People that have won a bunch get bumped up are in their own group. Then they do random drawings, RO drawings, new member drawings, and more. It was great to see people who had their first match win a solid prize, along with rewarding the shooters that put in a pile of time and practice.

[toothandnail]

All of this discussion makes me appreciate even more the way "other sports" work the prize table. The division/match winners already get the accolades and the trophies. Donated prizes from sponsors should be available equally to all via a drawing. Knowing you have a chance at a nice prize even if you didn't shoot particularly well that day makes the attendance more worth your time IMO.

yeah, WHY would we want to encourage anyone to WORK at getting better

I could MAYBE see having one or two nice items with a random draw, with EVERYONE included. But this EVERYBODY'S a winner crap is just THAT.

I ran a race track for about 10 years, we only gave awards to the TOP 3 (or 1/3), top 5 if there were 25+ in the class.

So if there happened to be only 3 in a class, guess what only ONE got a prize. MOST people understood, the "everybody wins" group . I told many when they complained, "if you WANT a prize , go home and PRACTICE".

[wdlong1]

All of this discussion makes me appreciate even more the way "other sports" work the prize table. The division/match winners already get the accolades and the trophies. Donated prizes from sponsors should be available equally to all via a drawing. Knowing you have a chance at a nice prize even if you didn't shoot particularly well that day makes the attendance more worth your time IMO.

yeah, WHY would we want to encourage anyone to WORK at getting better

I could MAYBE see having one or two nice items with a random draw, with EVERYONE included. But this EVERYBODY'S a winner crap is just THAT.

I ran a race track for about 10 years, we only gave awards to the TOP 3 (or 1/3), top 5 if there were 25+ in the class.

So if there happened to be only 3 in a class, guess what only ONE got a prize. MOST people understood, the "everybody wins" group . I told many when they complained, "if you WANT a prize , go home and PRACTICE".

AMEN!

[BillR1]

All of this discussion makes me appreciate even more the way "other sports" work the prize table. The division/match winners already get the accolades and the trophies. Donated prizes from sponsors should be available equally to all via a drawing. Knowing you have a chance at a nice prize even if you didn't shoot particularly well that day makes the attendance more worth your time IMO.

yeah, WHY would we want to encourage anyone to WORK at getting better

I could MAYBE see having one or two nice items with a random draw, with EVERYONE included. But this EVERYBODY'S a winner crap is just THAT.

I ran a race track for about 10 years, we only gave awards to the TOP 3 (or 1/3), top 5 if there were 25+ in the class.

So if there happened to be only 3 in a class, guess what only ONE got a prize. MOST people understood, the "everybody wins" group . I told many when they complained, "if you WANT a prize , go home and PRACTICE".

You may have misunderstood me. The trophies already go to the top shooters. That's what they "practice" for and are encouraged to get better. If you also give the same people the majority of the donated prizes, then you DIScourage some of the very people that make the sports thrive and grow. I think it's awesome to see a "senior" shooter win a nice gun. He can't compete straight up with the top dogs anymore, but he can still win a nice prize. The same goes for a junior shooter just starting out. He's not ready yet to compete for the trophies, but he'll be back if you don't also leave the other prizes so far out of his reach.

[Rob01]

The winners don't get a majority of prizes. They get first pick as they should and then it goes down the order again as it should. They usually give high senior, female and junior awards. The logic is flawed to give prizes by raffle. Maybe one nice prize to raffle to everyone as mentioned but all the prizes, no way.

[BillR1]

I guess it's good that there ARE shooting sports that distribute donated prizes via raffle with everyone having an equal chance. That just seems more fair to me.

[Vlad]

I guess it's good that there ARE shooting sports that distribute donated prizes via raffle with everyone having an equal chance. That just seems more fair to me.

I'm puzzled by this line of thought. I've always thought we referred to this as a sport and maybe I miss something but usually the prizes in figure skating aren't give out randomly.

[Rob01]

Fair that a guy who doesn't practice and just gets lucky on a raffle walks home with a better prize than the guy who is going to the range, dry firing at home and spending alot of his free time trying to perfect his sport? Maybe it's me but I don't get it.

Always been a pet peeve of mine about raffles for prizes at matches. Never saw them as a good idea from the time I started shooting competitively. Maybe it's the competitive nature in me that sees it as anything but fair. If I am dead last then that's where I am and the guy who is top dog gets the best prize and the food chain works down from there.

[BillR1]

I guess it's good that there ARE shooting sports that distribute donated prizes via raffle with everyone having an equal chance. That just seems more fair to me.

I'm puzzled by this line of thought. I've always thought we referred to this as a sport and maybe I miss something but usually the prizes in figure skating aren't give out randomly.

We're not talking about awards for shooting (trophies, plaques, etc.) We're talking about items that sponsors donate to encourage participation and help their exposure. I like the way the "other sport" uses those items by having a random draw prize table. Everyone has a chance at a nice prize, even if they can't compete for a trophy for whatever reason. (age, physical ability...)

[BillR1]

Fair that a guy who doesn't practice and just gets lucky on a raffle walks home with a better prize than the guy who is going to the range, dry firing at home and spending alot of his free time trying to perfect his sport? Maybe it's me but I don't get it.

Always been a pet peeve of mine about raffles for prizes at matches. Never saw them as a good idea from the time I started shooting competitively. Maybe it's the competitive nature in me that sees it as anything but fair. If I am dead last then that's where I am and the guy who is top dog gets the best prize and the food chain works down from there.

If everyone was on equal footing as far as age, physical gifts, time, etc. and the only difference between competitors was simply desire, then this argument would make perfect sense. We both know this is not the case...

[Vlad]

As the guy that finishes in the bottom third, I have no expectation that people younger, faster, more talented then me, etc would walk away with the lesser prize because of random draws.

Look, if I get together a bunch of middle aged computer programmers and start a basketball team I'm not going to say it is unfair that the NBA guys get more free shoes then my team does.

Fairness only has a place in the way the rules are applied and the match is administered, not in the distribution of rewards. I don't think it is fair that I'm not as good looking as Brad Pitt, or as hung as porn stars, or as rich as Bill Gates, but I'm not proposing we redistribute their rewards either.

[Rob01]

Amen Vlad.

So everyone has to be on equal level in all areas for prizes not to be raffled off? Are you serious? Where does that ever happen? Maybe the PGA will tell Tiger his 10 million dollar prize is getting raffled off. LOL Man you live in a different world than I do.

I am a 47 year old guy getting into 3 gun and have no expectations that I will ever win a match although I am going to do my best to better my skills. People with better skills should get better prizes. Bottom line.

[BillR1]

No one is talking about "redistribution of rewards"...

The reason for having different divisions (GM, M, A, B, C, etc.) is to recognize that you're competing with people in your own class and not simply against the GMs. What you're proposing sounds almost like doing away with divisions and instead going to strictly an overall finish. After all, why should the 3rd finisher in GM not get a better prize than the A class winner if the GM had a better score? See my point? Prizes are already distributed according to class and ability.

[BillR1]

I think we're confusing "awards" and "prizes". An award is something you earned, like a plaque or trophy. The top shooters SHOULD get those! Donated items (prizes) should be distributed randomly so everyone has a chance. Like I said, I prefer the way the "other game" does it...JMHO

[Vlad]

I think we're confusing "awards" and "prizes". An award is something you earned, like a plaque or trophy. The top shooters SHOULD get those! Donated items (prizes) should be distributed randomly so everyone has a chance. Like I said, I prefer the way the "other game" does it...JMHO

Errr you means besides the like 5 raffled guns? You mean besides that people like me in the bottom third walked away with +$300 of stuff?

Lets ignore that, I say I had a chance at anything on the table, I squandered it when I shot poorly.

[BillR1]

I think we're confusing "awards" and "prizes". An award is something you earned, like a plaque or trophy. The top shooters SHOULD get those! Donated items (prizes) should be distributed randomly so everyone has a chance. Like I said, I prefer the way the "other game" does it...JMHO

Errr you means besides the like 5 raffled guns? You mean besides that people like me in the bottom third walked away with +$300 of stuff?

Lets ignore that, I say I had a chance at anything on the table, I squandered it when I shot poorly.

That's the issue...you DIDN'T have a "chance at anything on the table" if you were competing for the first pick with a bunch of GMs and pro shooters! With a raffle, you do.

[Rob01]

3 gun does that with different divisions like Tac Optics, Open etc but in those divisions there isn't any differences in shooters. You shoot Tac Optics then you are up against the other shooters in that division and get awards and prizes according to the placement as it should be. In your division you do have the chance at anything on the prize table if you shoot well and win. Not everyone will be a top 5 shooter though. I won't be but I will do my best and draw accordingly. The best shooters do and should get the rewards of their hard work. I would be embarrassed to come in last and walk away with a better prize than the guy who won. That is not fair.

Why do you think that the prizes should be raffled? Just for fairness? The world is not fair. Fairness as mentioned only should be taken into account when it comes to rules. Other than that it's a game and the most skilled should be the ones to get the best prizes. You do sound like you want to redistribute the prizes from those 1 percenters.

If I was a sponsor I wouldn't donate to a raffle prize table. It doesn't promote the competitive nature that is meant to be had when competing to win. It is like the everyone gets a trophy mindset. Everyone doesn't win.

[Vlad]

I guess I'm confused about the notion of competition then. My chance on everything on that table came with my match entry. It was up to me to do well or poorly.

I guess I could stay home enter the publishers clearing house content for fair chances. Or scratch off lottery tickets.

[BillR1]

I guess I'm confused about the notion of competition then. My chance on everything on that table came with my match entry. It was up to me to do well or poorly.

Seriously? If you were entered in a match with Vogel, or TGO, or Sevigny...YOU alone could determine if you won or lost? Wow, you must be a way better shooter than I am...

Again, we're not talking about distributing the trophies to everyone. We're talking about the table of donated items that sponsors give away to promote their company. Big difference. BTW, the "other sport" seems to have no trouble getting items from sponsors for their random prize table.