Matchsaverz detonation problem

[Chuck Anderson]

Marco, Do you have documentation on any of this? I did a search and find nothing. I am curios since i once dropped a 50 round bulk pack of commercial reloaded 45 acp and had a primer detontate. The bullet never left the paper box.

Well yes. I was hired by various parties to investigate why these accidents/injuries occurred. If you want to stop by the office some day, I'd be more than happy to let you look at some photos.

.45 ACP has maybe 1/4 of the powder of a shotshell and one heavy slug. It has little to no "propulsion". You likely had a slightly bulged case and not much else.

Are you familiar with Hatchers Notebook? Commanding general the ordnance training center and a whole bunch of other positions. Please refer to chapter XXI," explosions and powder fires". He did extensive testing on cartridges fired without being chambered. He used an electric welding torch to set off the primer. He tested 45acp, 30-06 and 12 ga SHOTGUN trap loads. He took a bar of laundry soap to simulate flesh and covered it with a thin layer of white sheeting to show any scorching. He then laid a bath towel over the shell to simulate a coat. He used a 1 1/8 0z 3 dram equiv. trap load. He then placed a ordinary corrugated cardboard box over the arrangement to catch any fragments and to indicate what force they might have. I quote" On closing the switch, the pop of the exploding primer was heard, followed by the rattle of shot inside the cardboard box. On lifting the box, I found that the end crimp of the shell had opened up, and the shot was scattered all around, together with the wads and some unburned powder. THERE WERE NO MARKS ON THE INSIDE OF THE BOX, AND NO SCORCH OR BURN ON THE CLOTH, AND THE SOAP WAS NOT DENTED OR BRUISED. The sound of the explosion was so mild it did not sound like an explosion at all, but more like a marble dropping into a dishpan". So the incidents you cited did not happen with an unchambered round. And yes, the bar legend of firing a shotshell with the barrel off does work, but not with a model 12. A browning A5 extractor holds it firmly enough against the breech face to make it happen. Cost me a few bucks to see it happen.

So, I think I'm going to side with Mark here on this one. Despite the incredibly scientific experiment described above (and since I'm typing, that's sarcasm). A single experiment does not cover all possible outcomes. There are literally dozens of variables that were not accounted for in that test, Dram eq., crimp design, powder speed, shell orientation, shot charge weight. I'm sure I can keep going. To say that something can't happen because it didn't happen one other time is short sighted. Considering the little bit I know about Mark's work, if he says it happened I believe him.

BTW, we also had an officer shot in the leg a couple years back. Had a pocket full of ammo in his BDU pocket. Dropped another round in and it hit just right. Round fired and penetrated his leg, although not deep. That also shouldn't have happened, but did.

Weird stuff happens.

[MarkCO]

Very familiar with Hatcher's many writings. Some of it is certainly foundational information which has been re-proven by others, some of it not. I have fired about 100 rounds that were not in a chamber and there is certainly some variability. Directionality and pressure containment are some of those variables. Smokless powder just burns like a sparkler unless there are other forces at play. There are some that doubt Hatcher's claim that the primers were even ignited with the torch.

If you want to talk in person someday, more than willing. However, there are some topics that I just won't go further into on the internet for many obvious reasons. Let's suffice it to say, if everything worked "as intended and or presumed" I probably would have been an engine builder instead of a forensic engineer.

[kurtm]

ONE huge variable you are all overlooking!

Hatcher = old guy doing test long ago

Old guy test long ago = PAPER HULL!!!

Paper hull = much less containment pressure.

Sure some real cheap plastic hull would probably rupture about the same as a "stout paper hull, but a good quality hull is much stronger. Don't forget the trap/skeet guys like paper hulls because opening pressure is less which equals less shot deformation equals better pattern......but the operative words here are less pressure.

The whole thing is probably much ado about nothing, but I don't run them, and I'll never forget that shell flying down range!

Edited September 30, 2013 by kurtm

[Ken_Bird]

A good friend of mine has worked at shotgun sporting ranges his whole life. I once asked him what the strangest thing he had seen was. He told me a long story but the shortened version was someone held a shotgun shell up to the action half of an over under and fired it in her hand. She said it basically felt like getting a really hard hi five but her hands were fine.

Now I wouldn't want to try and recreate the results but the moral was rounds outside a chamber are far less dangerous.

He said there was also a bar style trick where people would catch all the shot from a fired 12 gauge in a paper bag. They used a model 12 removed the barrel stuck a bag over it and pulled the trigger. The bag would catch the shot.

I have to now throw the Bull Shit card. I have shot and loaded shotgun for thirty five years. Yes some crazy things happen but BS is BS JMHO

[ThomasM]

Hey hey not my story. Just an old guy at the range that told it to me. I believe him though.

[jon49erfan]

If anyone has the time to spare, here is a great video on ammunition being detonated outside of a chamber. The first test they run is with a 12 GA shotshell

[tohm]

Great video, some good shots i always wondered about in storing ammo. 400,000 rounds of ammo wasted no wonder there is a shortage, didn't see an 22's SAAMI can't even get them

[keno34]

Thanks to Jon49erfan for injecting some real science into this discussion. "When not in a firearm, projectile velocities are extremely low." The 12g would not penetrate cardboard.

On another note: I really like the Matchsaverz and have used two on my shotgun all season. I have not experienced any issues with the shells popping out and landing in the chamber when dumping my gun. I tried to scrap the round off my matchsaver today to see if I could get it into the chamber. I was successful if I went really slow and pushed it into the top of a horizonal barrel (note to self: don't drag your MS across the top of a horizontal barrel).

One final comment: I am not associated with the maker of the MS. I think its a great product and will continue to use it. A few months back I posted a link to a video I did about the MS to show people a great new product. The moderator of this fourm removed my video saying to was an ad. I disagreed and told him if I was trashing the product he would have let it stand. I think this topic shows that I was right.

[Religious Shooter]

That video is interesting. 2:30 I think if you had a paper bag over you could catch all the shot from a shotshell. I doubt it would have shredded a shooter's hand.

[MarkCO]

What do you think would happen if a finger was on the crimp preventing the crimp from allowing the pressure release?

It is not the shot that causes the harm but the jet of hot gases.

I have proven a match can be snuffed out in gasoline vapor too, but I don't do it regularly.

Edited October 1, 2013 by MarkCO

[Religious Shooter]

I don't know. Maybe you should do a video simulating it.

And maybe calculate the possibility of someone having a match saver... have it somehow let go of the shell... the chances the bolt handle smacks the primer... and the shooter has their hand/finger right in front of the crimp.

Or something like that.

How many times has this happened again?

[kurtm]

I think I would be more worried about my extended bolt handle catching the rim of the dump barrel and creating a Benelli pogo stick! Probably a higher risk than a match saver.

[MarkCO]

Yes Kurt, you are probably correct, and the rest of this post is not directed at you because I know you already grasp the topic.

Risk vs. reward is something we all evaluate everyday, whether you realize it or not. The most dangerous thing most of you do is drive a car. Yes, that is more risky than shooting 3Gun! However, in that realm, we are all aware of the associated risks. So too, the risks of using your pocket knife to open a box...you might cut yourself...but the risk is low and one you will take because the benefit outweighs the risk, perceived or real. Before I saw it on video, I thought the chance of a shell entering the chamber after getting popped out of a matchsaver was minuscule. It is still very low, but it did happen, twice in one match. So too can a shotshell, if hit right, have the primer ignited. If that were to happen, there is a risk that injury could occur, but the risk is low. So sure, take two low risk events and couple them and the coupled risk is even less.

Realize that I work on cases where people assumed that there was low to no risk and wound up mangled or dead. In every single case I have worked on where a person died or had permanent damage, there were at least two coupled events, usually both of them low risk, that were casual factors in the incident. In the majority of those cases, there was a person, victim or otherwise, who made a decision to accept a certain amount of risk by not doing something the "right" way. The "right" way can mean a lot of things, from code, to law, to SOP, to generally accepted standard of care. The decision may have been cognitive, or it may have been through ignorance, but the risk was still there.

A friend asked me at FNH how my day was going. My answer: "You don't ask a heart surgeon if he has seen any good hearts today." In the same realm, sure I am a bit more cautious than the average person because of my work experience and base personality. However, one of my charges as a Professional Engineer is to use my education, skills and experience in such a way as to be informative to the public where their welfare may be affected. Risk is real or perceived and we learn to acknowledge, accept, and or avoid risk based on how we are raised, life lessons, education, etc. But I have stacks and stacks of files (and I am but one of maybe a few thousand forensic engineers) where people, or multiple people, did not correctly evaluate or perceive the risk(s). In some cases, that mistake cost them their life, in other cases, someone else's life.

There are certainly deeper implications and layered complications in any of these types of discussions. However, there is enough information within this thread that persons skilled at arms can understand, evaluate and assume the level of risk they are comfortable with. Even with that, there are certainly ways to safeguard, and minimize the risk of unintended events from occurring, if a person decides to use a MatchSaver.

If someone's feathers got ruffled, I apologize, as that was never my intent. On the other hand, realize that your level of acceptable risk and knowledge is not going to be the same for everyone who reads these threads. If Garcia wants to use a MatchSaver, I would not try to talk him out of it. OTOH, I would not put one on a shotgun of a 13 year old shooting their first match. The skillsets, understanding, skill at weapon manipulation and thought process are vastly different between those two entities. The actual risk of an unintended event is actually reduced by Garcia's advanced skillset as compared to the average person whereas the actual risk of an unintended event is increased by a new youth shooter. As such, Garcia could be termed as a "sophisticated user" whereas the new youth shooter could not.

[bpipe95]

Very well said!

[dcloudy777]

It seems to me like this is a very small risk, and with a little thought on the "placement" of a matchsaver or similar device, it can be made even smaller... like, less than the odds of your spare rounds being set off by lightning small.

[kurtm]

Seems to me that I have seen a Benelli pogo stick cause a D.Q

[Bryan 45]

As such, Garcia could be termed as a "sophisticated user" whereas the new youth shooter could not.

Thanks Mark. As if Keith's head wasn't already big enough....

Edited October 1, 2013 by Bryan 45

[MarkCO]

As such, Garcia could be termed as a "sophisticated user" whereas the new youth shooter could not.

Thanks Mark. As if Keith's head wasn't already big enough....

Just buy him a bigger hat for his Christmas present. I think you are pretty "sophisticated" too, at least when it comes to the topic at hand. There are probably hundreds of names that could be swapped out for Garcia in this case.

Edited October 1, 2013 by MarkCO

[MetropolisLake]

So since this seems to be a loading problem and not a MatchSaverz specific problem, is it unsafe to load into the loading/ejection port? My skeet club doesn't let us keep a bunch of ammo in the tube, they make us load each shot separately except with doubles, so everybody is constantly just loading shells into the side if they have a semi-auto. That's going to make me cringe now.

[shopgun]

Gotta LOVE that SAMMI video.And they used one of them newfangled plastic shotshells. That jet of hot gasses must dissappate very quickly as there there is no marking on the cardboard 7 INCHES from the shell.Quote" much of the powder is left unburned". And yes the Browning A5 trick does work!

[shopgun]

Marco, Do you have documentation on any of this? I did a search and find nothing. I am curios since i once dropped a 50 round bulk pack of commercial reloaded 45 acp and had a primer detontate. The bullet never left the paper box.

Well yes. I was hired by various parties to investigate why these accidents/injuries occurred. If you want to stop by the office some day, I'd be more than happy to let you look at some photos.

.45 ACP has maybe 1/4 of the powder of a shotshell and one heavy slug. It has little to no "propulsion". You likely had a slightly bulged case and not much else.

Are you familiar with Hatchers Notebook? Commanding general the ordnance training center and a whole bunch of other positions. Please refer to chapter XXI," explosions and powder fires". He did extensive testing on cartridges fired without being chambered. He used an electric welding torch to set off the primer. He tested 45acp, 30-06 and 12 ga SHOTGUN trap loads. He took a bar of laundry soap to simulate flesh and covered it with a thin layer of white sheeting to show any scorching. He then laid a bath towel over the shell to simulate a coat. He used a 1 1/8 0z 3 dram equiv. trap load. He then placed a ordinary corrugated cardboard box over the arrangement to catch any fragments and to indicate what force they might have. I quote" On closing the switch, the pop of the exploding primer was heard, followed by the rattle of shot inside the cardboard box. On lifting the box, I found that the end crimp of the shell had opened up, and the shot was scattered all around, together with the wads and some unburned powder. THERE WERE NO MARKS ON THE INSIDE OF THE BOX, AND NO SCORCH OR BURN ON THE CLOTH, AND THE SOAP WAS NOT DENTED OR BRUISED. The sound of the explosion was so mild it did not sound like an explosion at all, but more like a marble dropping into a dishpan". So the incidents you cited did not happen with an unchambered round. And yes, the bar legend of firing a shotshell with the barrel off does work, but not with a model 12. A browning A5 extractor holds it firmly enough against the breech face to make it happen. Cost me a few bucks to see it happen.

So, I think I'm going to side with Mark here on this one. Despite the incredibly scientific experiment described above (and since I'm typing, that's sarcasm). A single experiment does not cover all possible outcomes. There are literally dozens of variables that were not accounted for in that test, Dram eq., crimp design, powder speed, shell orientation, shot charge weight. I'm sure I can keep going. To say that something can't happen because it didn't happen one other time is short sighted. Considering the little bit I know about Mark's work, if he says it happened I believe him.

BTW, we also had an officer shot in the leg a couple years back. Had a pocket full of ammo in his BDU pocket. Dropped another round in and it hit just right. Round fired and penetrated his leg, although not deep. That also shouldn't have happened, but did.

Weird stuff happens.

Did you see the SAAMI video?

[Tacticalk9]

Gotta LOVE that SAMMI video.And they used one of them newfangled plastic shotshells. That jet of hot gasses must dissappate very quickly as there there is no marking on the cardboard 7 INCHES from the shell.Quote" much of the powder is left unburned". And yes the Browning A5 trick does work!

sure 7 inches it may dissipate but if your finger is on the crimp of the shell going into the loading port + the variable pressures with each powder/load/detonation strength, i see a chance for hospital trip or at minimum an owie and a DQ.

Of course Id rather not run dry to begin with but Im not taking mine off either way.

[MarkCO]

sure 7 inches it may dissipate but if your finger is on the crimp of the shell going into the loading port + the variable pressures with each powder/load/detonation strength, i see a chance for hospital trip or at minimum an owie and a DQ.

Of course Id rather not run dry to begin with but Im not taking mine off either way.

Don't baffle him with logic, he has himself convinced.

[shopgun]

sure 7 inches it may dissipate but if your finger is on the crimp of the shell going into the loading port + the variable pressures with each powder/load/detonation strength, i see a chance for hospital trip or at minimum an owie and a DQ.

Of course Id rather not run dry to begin with but Im not taking mine off either way.

Don't baffle him with logic, he has himself convinced.

Whose "logic" are we referring to? Hatcher's and SAAMI's or ----yours?

[kurtm]

Does your logic say you wouldn't mind if it were your face 7" from the detonating shell? Please video your test, you can wear glasses if you wish, but from the sounds of it you shouldn't bother.