Matchsaverz detonation problem

[Alaskapopo]

Think about this!

You are using your Matchsaver in a "oh shit" moment. The idea is to get that shell in there fast!

You slide it back to go into the port and hit the bolt release but the shell got hung up between the front and back of the ejection port. The bolt comes forward. The extractor hits the hung up shell primer.

Boom, a 12 gauge has detonated 6" from your face!!!

Nasty! Think about it.

I think you are thinking too hard. You could be abducted by aliens in the middle of a match too but I don't think you should worry about it.

Pat

Edited September 24, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[kurtm]

You can't be abducted in the middle of a stage however until you out of ammo

[ericm]

"Attempted Alien Abduction", Shotgun, 20 birdshot, 6 slug.

Start Postion: Loaded Shotgun in barrel, shooter lying naked on table with "probe" touching......

....Oh look! A piece of candy!.....

ericm

[rtp]

rtp, I know there were 2 DQs due to shells going into the loading port as I was the RM. I heard about two other occurrences of the same thing today. I was told about two occurrences of shells being struck by the charging handle causing primer ignition. Of course, similar to Kurt's, but with ignition. Certainly enough in just a few months to give pause.

Sure, thanks for the clarifications!

Edited September 24, 2013 by rtp

[cas]

Sounds like a good reason to use an Arredondo bolt handle.

[Nickoli]

Only thing that has happened to me is my shell came out after about 5 slugs at a match 2 weeks ago. Granted mine is not a true Matchsaver because I made it from spare supplies I had at work. Looks just like one and functions the same. That's the only issue I have had with mine, I actually remove the shell after every stage if I didn't use it to keep it from losing its tension.

It might get removed anyways if I can't figure out a wag to load quads without hitting it.

[JPeel]

I spent two hours yesterday with dummy rounds and my matchsaverz/versamax attempting to get the round in just the right position to where the extractor would hit the primer just so. After my experiment with it I'm no more concerned using the matchsaverz as I am port loading off a caddy or Twins. Hit the bolt release before the shell is in the chamber and something bad "could" happen. I'm more concerned about getting my fingers caught by the bolt than I am having a premature detonation.

I'm not saying that it can't, or hasn't happened but I don't see that being any bigger risk than anything else we do.

[Onagoth]

Isn't the primer problem curable by just mounting the matchsaver further forward? So that its impossible to get hit by the charging handle?

[Bentsight]

I liked the idea but not the price, made my own out of .128 kydex.

I formed it over a mandrel and cut/filled to final shape. Tension could be changed easily by heating and reforming kydex if desired.

It's also mounted far enough forward to not effect quadloads but still be faster than going to the belt for a single reload.

[MarkCO]

They are just made from Kitec water tubing available at any plumbing supply.

A slight outboard angle and or moving forward would reduce the potential for getting hit by the charging handle, but not impossible.

[shopgun]

I made mine out of 3/4 " id schedule 40 pvc pipe, a lot thicker than the commercial one and i have never had a problem with a shell coming loose. I added two strips of thin plastic sheeting made from the markers that come with flowers/veggies that my wife buys to give a firm hold. It's impossible for the shell to move rearward on firing since the inertia wants to drive the shell forward. But I would definately remove yours if it worries you.

[mpeltier]

There ya have it.... A Red Neck Ferrari

Almost.....ya gotta have a set of deer atlenters attached to the hood and a cooler of beer strapped to the roof.

[Onagoth]

They are just made from Kitec water tubing available at any plumbing supply.

A slight outboard angle and or moving forward would reduce the potential for getting hit by the charging handle, but not impossible.

I don't think I am following this....the shells I use for three gun are only 2.75" long. If I mount my matchsaver 3-4" ahead of the most forward bolt location, how can the bolt possibly hit the shell and cause a discharge?

[Ken_Bird]

Duh !

[JPeel]

They are just made from Kitec water tubing available at any plumbing supply.

A slight outboard angle and or moving forward would reduce the potential for getting hit by the charging handle, but not impossible.

I don't think I am following this....the shells I use for three gun are only 2.75" long. If I mount my matchsaver 3-4" ahead of the most forward bolt location, how can the bolt possibly hit the shell and cause a discharge?

The OP made the case for the shell not going completely in the chamber but getting caught somehow on the front of the ejection port when the bolt comes racing forward. IF all the stars aligned just wrong, the extractor on the bolt could contact the primer, thus causing detonation.

As for the forward location of the matchsaverz, I have mine mounted so that the rear of the shell is not more than 1/2" forward of the ejection port. That still leaves a helluva lot of space between the back of the shell and the bolt handle in it's forward position.

[shopgun]

A good friend of mine has worked at shotgun sporting ranges his whole life. I once asked him what the strangest thing he had seen was. He told me a long story but the shortened version was someone held a shotgun shell up to the action half of an over under and fired it in her hand. She said it basically felt like getting a really hard hi five but her hands were fine.

Now I wouldn't want to try and recreate the results but the moral was rounds outside a chamber are far less dangerous.

He said there was also a bar style trick where people would catch all the shot from a fired 12 gauge in a paper bag. They used a model 12 removed the barrel stuck a bag over it and pulled the trigger. The bag would catch the shot.

Nice story, but not true! I've seen firsthand the damage a shotshell does when it is ignited out of a chamber, not once, but several times. A hunter in Canada with a lot of damage to his face and permanent eye damage, a 12 year old missing three fingers, a 23 year old who was killed...and there are more.

Marco, Do you have documentation on any of this? I did a search and find nothing. I am curios since i once dropped a 50 round bulk pack of commercial reloaded 45 acp and had a primer detontate. The bullet never left the paper box.

[Onagoth]

They are just made from Kitec water tubing available at any plumbing supply.

A slight outboard angle and or moving forward would reduce the potential for getting hit by the charging handle, but not impossible.

I don't think I am following this....the shells I use for three gun are only 2.75" long. If I mount my matchsaver 3-4" ahead of the most forward bolt location, how can the bolt possibly hit the shell and cause a discharge?

The OP made the case for the shell not going completely in the chamber but getting caught somehow on the front of the ejection port when the bolt comes racing forward. IF all the stars aligned just wrong, the extractor on the bolt could contact the primer, thus causing detonation.

As for the forward location of the matchsaverz, I have mine mounted so that the rear of the shell is not more than 1/2" forward of the ejection port. That still leaves a helluva lot of space between the back of the shell and the bolt handle in it's forward position.

ah...I knew I was missing something.

[MarkCO]

Marco, Do you have documentation on any of this? I did a search and find nothing. I am curios since i once dropped a 50 round bulk pack of commercial reloaded 45 acp and had a primer detontate. The bullet never left the paper box.

Well yes. I was hired by various parties to investigate why these accidents/injuries occurred. If you want to stop by the office some day, I'd be more than happy to let you look at some photos.

.45 ACP has maybe 1/4 of the powder of a shotshell and one heavy slug. It has little to no "propulsion". You likely had a slightly bulged case and not much else.

[shopgun]

Are you talking about a shotshell detonating completly outside the chamber or one partially chambered?

[LikesToShoot]

I don't see this as a Matchsaverz caused problem but a loading quickly and bolt closing detonation problem. If I throw a shell in and hit the bolt release too soon I can see where it could go off if stuck by the extractor.

There's been many reports of the 1911 40 cal lighting off a round when the primer hit the ejector during unload and show clear.

Stuff happens! Ask Todd Jarrett he got bit on that one.

It's good to be aware of this since safety starts between the ears but shooting sports do have risks with the possibility of grave consequences.

[JPeel]

I don't see this as a Matchsaverz caused problem but a loading quickly and bolt closing detonation problem. If I throw a shell in and hit the bolt release too soon I can see where it could go off if stuck by the extractor.

................

It's good to be aware of this since safety starts between the ears but shooting sports do have risks with the possibility of grave consequences.

'nuff said!

[gondo]

You can't be abducted in the middle of a stage however until you out of ammo

Lmao

[J.Schmitt]

I have the homade look alike from a piece of blue water line, and used it successfully shooting ducks last weekend in MN in addition to shooting 3 gun. I took a look at it an it is an impossiblitiy for me to strike the primer with the bolt handle. I have always run the stock handle and with the way it is curved, it cannot hit the primer.

Jay

[shopgun]

Marco, Do you have documentation on any of this? I did a search and find nothing. I am curios since i once dropped a 50 round bulk pack of commercial reloaded 45 acp and had a primer detontate. The bullet never left the paper box.

Well yes. I was hired by various parties to investigate why these accidents/injuries occurred. If you want to stop by the office some day, I'd be more than happy to let you look at some photos.

.45 ACP has maybe 1/4 of the powder of a shotshell and one heavy slug. It has little to no "propulsion". You likely had a slightly bulged case and not much else.

Are you familiar with Hatchers Notebook? Commanding general the ordnance training center and a whole bunch of other positions. Please refer to chapter XXI," explosions and powder fires". He did extensive testing on cartridges fired without being chambered. He used an electric welding torch to set off the primer. He tested 45acp, 30-06 and 12 ga SHOTGUN trap loads. He took a bar of laundry soap to simulate flesh and covered it with a thin layer of white sheeting to show any scorching. He then laid a bath towel over the shell to simulate a coat. He used a 1 1/8 0z 3 dram equiv. trap load. He then placed a ordinary corrugated cardboard box over the arrangement to catch any fragments and to indicate what force they might have. I quote" On closing the switch, the pop of the exploding primer was heard, followed by the rattle of shot inside the cardboard box. On lifting the box, I found that the end crimp of the shell had opened up, and the shot was scattered all around, together with the wads and some unburned powder. THERE WERE NO MARKS ON THE INSIDE OF THE BOX, AND NO SCORCH OR BURN ON THE CLOTH, AND THE SOAP WAS NOT DENTED OR BRUISED. The sound of the explosion was so mild it did not sound like an explosion at all, but more like a marble dropping into a dishpan". So the incidents you cited did not happen with an unchambered round. And yes, the bar legend of firing a shotshell with the barrel off does work, but not with a model 12. A browning A5 extractor holds it firmly enough against the breech face to make it happen. Cost me a few bucks to see it happen.

[Jesse Tischauser]

If it can happen it will happen in a match. Like Mark said its best to never run dry then you don't need all that stuff hanging off your gun. Personally I like a matchender type device on the left side of the gun where you can add a shell to the tube instantly after a miss.