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Can an unsecure wall cause a DQ via AD?


Don Springer

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Shooter (right handed) is backing out of a shooting position down a hall and prepping to move to his right to the next position while reloading. The walls catch a gust of wind and half collapse on the shooter (from the right) and he puts a round in the deck 3 feet from his feet.

Walls were not nailed down and the wall that caught the wind was a blue tarp tied between two snow fence walls.

He catches the DQ and is cool with it. He stuck around all day and tapped. Didn't have much choice as I drove. :D Fast forward 6 hours and he is replaying it in his head over and over and he's starting to hate that wall. He calls me and asks if that was his fault. He wanted to know if he could have fought it.

My take was regardless of what caused the AD his finger was too close to the trigger. DQ

Is there a rule that could have saved him? If an RO bumps you and causes an AD you get a reshoot for RO interference right? Does the same apply to range interference?

Thanks

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Interesting...it would seem his finger had to be on trigger while moving and/or reloading. Also it was an ND. But REF also comes into play has the wall did fall down. I believe it's a DQ, just not sure what rules stands best. Unsafe gun handling I would cite on scoresheet....

Smarter minds may say different though.

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If an RO bumps you and causes an AD you get a reshoot for RO interference right?

No. An AD, regardless of reason, is a DQ. The competitor is ALWAYS responsible for their firearm. That isn't to say an arbitration committee wouldn't overturn the DQ, but it might uphold the DQ, too. IMO, RO interference is extenuating circumstances, but there again, how much of a bump did the RO give the shooter?

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It's a DQ under the rules. The RO and the RM don't have the authority to do anything but uphold the DQ. An arbitration committee may reinstate for exceptional circumstances though. Personally I would find against the shooter with the info provided. I can see maybe if the wall or an RO hit him so hard he broke the 180. But not for an AD.

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If he was reloading, and the wall falling on him caused the ad/dq, that is de facto evidence that his finger was in the trigger guard where it shouldn't have been. I'm very glad he didn't shoot his foot, and very glad he sucked it up and showed some class by continuing to help and participate.

I can easily imagine similar situations where i would fight a dq, for example, if not reloading, and a wall hits me, and a shot hits the ground in front of me..... I would argue that, and generally also side with the shooter if I was on an arbitration committee.

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It's a DQ under the rules. The RO and the RM don't have the authority to do anything but uphold the DQ. An arbitration committee may reinstate for exceptional circumstances though. Personally I would find against the shooter with the info provided. I can see maybe if the wall or an RO hit him so hard he broke the 180. But not for an AD.

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I can see maybe if the wall or an RO hit him so hard he broke the 180. But not for an AD.

to me, it would make a big difference whether the shooter was engaging targets and got hit by the wall and 'AD'd' or was reloading and got hit by the wall and 'AD'd'. IMHO, If you're shooting, you're expected to have your finger on the trigger, and you're not expecting stage props to attack you. If you're reloading, you're expected to have your finger well away from the trigger, so even if stage props attack you, nothing terrible will happen.

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I can see maybe if the wall or an RO hit him so hard he broke the 180. But not for an AD.

to me, it would make a big difference whether the shooter was engaging targets and got hit by the wall and 'AD'd' or was reloading and got hit by the wall and 'AD'd'. IMHO, If you're shooting, you're expected to have your finger on the trigger, and you're not expecting stage props to attack you. If you're reloading, you're expected to have your finger well away from the trigger, so even if stage props attack you, nothing terrible will happen.

Just going by the OP but it says he was reloading and moving between positions.

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I can see maybe if the wall or an RO hit him so hard he broke the 180. But not for an AD.

to me, it would make a big difference whether the shooter was engaging targets and got hit by the wall and 'AD'd' or was reloading and got hit by the wall and 'AD'd'. IMHO, If you're shooting, you're expected to have your finger on the trigger, and you're not expecting stage props to attack you. If you're reloading, you're expected to have your finger well away from the trigger, so even if stage props attack you, nothing terrible will happen.

Just going by the OP but it says he was reloading and moving between positions.

100% agreed, based on the original post. The 'reloading and moving between positions' part just wasn't clear in your post. I appreciate you sharing your experience and thoughts on this thread, it's how I learn.

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Well sometimes they aren't, I had the wind blow over 2 sections of wall, one section of the wall hit me in the shoulder as I came around the corner. The other section hit my gun which I was just pushing up and out to get on target and a 3" long dry wall screw (which had been holding the 2 sections together) went right into the trigger guard and "BANG!". Fortunately I still had my trigger finger along side the slide or the sharp end of the dry wall screw would have probably done bad things to my trigger finger and the RO could clearly see that I hadn't pulled the trigger, so no DQ. It did however put an ugly gouge on an almost new gun.

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With an open mind, look at it this way. Forget about the ND for a moment-if the same thing happened and a wall blew down onto a shooter, that would automatically get a reshoot for range equipment failure. Had that happen to me at the 3gun nationals in Vegas years ago when the wind blew a huge netting over the top of me while shooting a stage. Chuck, you were in my squad and probably remember the incident.

So are we saying the shooter is responsible for the gun regardless of what transpired? Try this one then. 3 gun match, shooter does shotgun portion, properly places shotgun in barrel, grabs handgun and starts engaging targets with it. Wind comes up, blows shotgun dump barrel over and shotgun ends up pointing up range. Are you gonna DQ the shooter for passing in front of a loaded gun (10.5.3)?

If I'm on that ARB, I'm hard pressed to allow the DQ. This is a pretty abnormal circumstance. Flame suit on.

Edited by outerlimits
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With an open mind, look at it this way. Forget about the ND for a moment-if the same thing happened and a wall blew down onto a shooter, that would automatically get a reshoot for range equipment failure. Had that happen to me at the 3gun nationals in Vegas years ago when the wind blew a huge netting over the top of me while shooting a stage. Chuck, you were in my squad and probably remember the incident.

So are we saying the shooter is responsible for the gun regardless of what transpired? Try this one then. 3 gun match, shooter does shotgun portion, properly places shotgun in barrel, grabs handgun and starts engaging targets with it. Wind comes up, blows shotgun dump barrel over and shotgun ends up pointing up range. Are you gonna DQ the shooter for passing in front of a loaded gun (10.5.3)?

If I'm on that ARB, I'm hard pressed to allow the DQ. This is a pretty abnormal circumstance. Flame suit on.

That's a far different story from the gun going "bang".....

Gun goes off -- there's very few instances where I don't call that a DQ....

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With an open mind, look at it this way. Forget about the ND for a moment-if the same thing happened and a wall blew down onto a shooter, that would automatically get a reshoot for range equipment failure. Had that happen to me at the 3gun nationals in Vegas years ago when the wind blew a huge netting over the top of me while shooting a stage. Chuck, you were in my squad and probably remember the incident.

So are we saying the shooter is responsible for the gun regardless of what transpired? Try this one then. 3 gun match, shooter does shotgun portion, properly places shotgun in barrel, grabs handgun and starts engaging targets with it. Wind comes up, blows shotgun dump barrel over and shotgun ends up pointing up range. Are you gonna DQ the shooter for passing in front of a loaded gun (10.5.3)?

If I'm on that ARB, I'm hard pressed to allow the DQ. This is a pretty abnormal circumstance. Flame suit on.

Different situation. Would you DQ if the wind blew the barrel over and the gun went bang?

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The gun is supposed to be abandoned properly as per USPSA Multigun rules. Wouldn't that be the same as a shooter's gun malfunctioning, and that would be subject to the aforementioned "Shooter error isn't the only reason for DQ?" If I'm running in between two arrays with my finger squarely off the trigger and I take a hard step and the gun goes off and impacts in DQable range, it's still a DQ. It's not really my "fault" in traditional terms but it would still be a DQ. If an abandoned gun has to be empty or has to have the safety fully engaged and it goes off when you put it in the barrel, that's a DQ. Although now this is getting off topic.

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Well there is not much you can say. It was an AD and his finger pulled the trigger. That is a DQ regardless of what caused it. If your finger is off the trigger and out of the trigger guard while moving a house could fall on you and most likely no AD.

JMHO

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We are making some (probably correct) assumptions, but I'm going to play devil's advocate.

We are assuming his finger was in the trigger guard while he was reloading. I say assuming, because it's possible it wasn't. Is it possible his finger was indexed along the frame, but knocked into the trigger guard by the wall? Wouldn't that be an extraordinary circumstances that an arb committee could consider?

I agree the above scenario isn't likely, but may be possible.

As an arb committee member, if the competitor claimed this, I'd ask the RO if he/she SAW the finger in the trigger guard BEFORE the wall fell. If not....

Edited by sfchorn
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If you would have left the word reloading out of the OP we could be talking something different. I would have a tough time being 100% certain that the shot was an AD if the wall came down while actively engaging targets because it is expected that your finger will be on the trigger. Here the finger should have been off and I cannot see a tarp hitting your hand/gun hard enough to force your finger into the trigger.

Edited by Poppa Bear
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