1st non local match dq disaster

[MGMorden]

One thing to understand is that if you shoot this sport long enough - you'll get a DQ. I've been DQ'd before - I'd wager that most of the people in this thread have been DQ'd at least once before.

You use it as a learning experience. If we leave things up to what one person or other other "feels" is unsafe or not then we get absolute chaos - and range safety suffers. As such we have to establish what we as a sport feel are important range safety rules - many of which are far more strict than Cooper's Four Rules (ie, cold range - you get DQ'd for even handling your gun at the wrong time no matter if you follow the 4 rules or not). A little draconian? Perhaps, but USPSA matches have an excellent safety as a result.

With those rules in place you have to follow them. There's not much interpretation in what you did - by the rule book it was very clearly a DQ. I can understand the frustration being DQ'd from a major match, but at the end of the day you're still responsible for knowing the rules and if you've been shooting the sport for a year now you're well beyond what most would consider a new shooter. You can either learn from it and continue with the sport or decide that you don't feel the rules are acceptable and move on. Either way though, what happened was not unfair - it simply is what it is. Live and learn.

[lawboy]

What is the OP's home club and where is it located?

Edited September 7, 2013 by lawboy

[IHAVEGAS]

What is the OP's home club and where is it located?

You can put things together pretty easy with a bit of snooping on match results and etc. , I think it would be very wrong to others and a disservice to the sport to blame my error on them.

If you feel I am a cowboy and wish to make sure that they know who I am and etc then let me know if you wish and I will pm contact information to you for the 3 local clubs in my area.

Side issue. I noticed the IDPA number in your signature area. So far I've talked with 3 local s.o.'s on the table start thing and the opinions I've gotten back are either it's a procedural under 'rules of the game' or no penalty. I'm going to keep asking because I haven't found a definite answer yet and need to know if it comes up. If you know the answer to that one and someplace I could point to to back the answer up then it would be appreciated. Whatever the answer is in one sport does not have bearing on the answer in another sport, Mea Culpa if asking for the same irritates anyone, I just need to know so I can talk to the 2 local IDPA clubs & we can make sure everybody is on the same page.

Edited September 7, 2013 by IHAVEGAS

[Attila]

I understand you disagree with the rule and it's application, but I don't understand why. Grip safeties have nothing to do with this rule. Lots of guns don't have them and are used in this sport. If it is not required to have one on one gun, why require it on another? Do you propose only allowing guns with this feature? I hope not. If you leave a loaded single action gun with a very light trigger pull somewhere out of your control, it needs a safety device enabled. If that gun were to be unintentionally moved off the table by someone or something, a safety needs to be active.

While the 1911, 1911A1 and 2011 were all designed with a grip safety, the original design (as others have stated) did not include this design. YOU may think all should have it, others don't. USPSA rules are permisive in that if you want it, fine. If not, fine. Another gun without it that is used in this sport is CZ single actions like the CTS, and believe it or not, the Browning HiPower saw use in our sport.

YOU chose to attend a level II match. YOU were responsible for knowing the rules. You left your gun with the satety off. It not USPSA fault for having a rule you don't agree with. It is not the RO's fault for applying the rule as intended and written. It is not the match admins fault for not having a new shooters meeting at a level two match.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, understand all this. Then put it behind you, understand the rules (you don't have to agree with them all, just understand and follow them) and come back again.

[IHAVEGAS]

YOU chose to attend a level II match. YOU were responsible for knowing the rules. You left your gun with the satety off. It not USPSA fault for having a rule you don't agree with. It is not the RO's fault for applying the rule as intended and written. It is not the match admins fault for not having a new shooters meeting at a level two match.

Hi. Actually at this point I'm just looking for an exit strategy to the thread. My intent was to agree with everything noted above in a previous post a few days back.

A wiser person would not have made my most recent reply but I wanted an answer to the question posed for my personal benefit and I hate the idea of any innocent 3rd party getting associated with anything negative that was all my doing, probably just paranoia on my part.

I hereby DQ myself for being crazy enough to ask an IDPA question on a USPSA forum. We can perhaps all agree that this is risky behavior.

[GrumpyOne]

Hi. Actually at this point I'm just looking for an exit strategy to the thread. My intent was to agree with everything noted above in a previous post a few days back.

A wiser person would not have made my most recent reply but I wanted an answer to the question posed for my personal benefit and I hate the idea of any innocent 3rd party getting associated with anything negative that was all my doing, probably just paranoia on my part.

I hereby DQ myself for being crazy enough to ask an IDPA question on a USPSA forum. We can perhaps all agree that this is risky behavior.

Look at it this way....at least you're getting your post count up on the forums!

[Sarge]

Look at it this way....at least you're getting your post count up on the forums!

[Jcj81]

To the OP question about table start for IDPA, I read it as a SA gun safeties must be on no matter what.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php USPSA rule LINK

http://www.idpa.com/compete/rules IDPA rule LINK

IDPA

2.8. All CoFs will be started with the pistol holstered, safeties engaged as required by different divisions, and hands clear of equipment including the concealment garment unless other positions for the pistol are stipulated in the CoF description, (table top, drawer, pack, purse, in the firing hand, etc.)

IDPA

8.2.3.1.6.1. Firearms designed for cocked and locked carry will start cocked and locked (hammer cocked, safety engaged).

Edited September 8, 2013 by Jcj81

[thermobollocks]

That's how I read it, too. I'm also a card-carrying SO.

[Gary Stevens]

I'm not sure I agree with the "If you haven't been DQ'd you will be at some point".

It takes concentration on what you are doing, knowledge of the rules,and an awareness of your surroundings. I've been doing this for 35 years and have never been issued a DQ. I can't even remember an RO ever giving a safety warning while I was shooting. I've taken some nasty falls while shooting and was able to maintain safety.

If at some point I should have been DQ'd and was not, then shame on the RO for not giving me what I earned.

Admittedly, strange things can happen. but it is not a foregone conclusion that a shooter will be DQ'd during their shooting career.

Gary

[whitedog]

35 years. Impressive. I hope I see that mark. I DQ'd myself once...and then was told I was wrong and it wasn't a DQ.

[thermobollocks]

That's awesome -- good on you.

My one close call was at a rifle-only match on a VTAC wall standards stage. By the time I got to the last port, I ripped off a burst instead of a single shot, but it wasn't the trigger group, it was me unintentionally bumpfiring the thing because it wasn't solidly shouldered.

Once I told the RO it was shooter error and not equipment failure, he said "Okay, let's see, so that's 5 procedurals for extra shots..."

[Whoops!]

I'm surprised by how many people follow the mentality of "those are the rules so they must be followed." Some rules are obviously worse than others, take certain anti-gun rules for example . . . or the laws still on the books today that were made a hundred years ago and are now made fun of by everyone, even by police officers. Let me ask you this, if there was a rule that none of you could own or drink alcoholic beverages . . . ok, you see where this is going.

I'm not saying what the OP did is right or wrong. I simply ask this. Was his 2011 on a barrel pointed down range with the manual safety off less dangerous than a Glock with a competition trigger on the same barrel, or in a holster? One of these guns will automatically DQ the shooter. The other one is safe. Both require approximately two pounds of pressure on the trigger before the bullet is ignited and sent out of the barrel at a dangerous speed.

Also, every major match RO I've talked to tells me if something is breaking the 180 if I ask about it before hand. If you're an RO, and you don't, you are a **** and you're pushing people away from the sport. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Whoops!

[mhs]

I'm surprised by how many people follow the mentality of "those are the rules so they must be followed." Some rules are obviously worse than others, take certain anti-gun rules for example . . . or the laws still on the books today that were made a hundred years ago and are now made fun of by everyone, even by police officers. Let me ask you this, if there was a rule that none of you could own or drink alcoholic beverages . . . ok, you see where this is going.

I'm not saying what the OP did is right or wrong. I simply ask this. Was his 2011 on a barrel pointed down range with the manual safety off less dangerous than a Glock with a competition trigger on the same barrel, or in a holster? One of these guns will automatically DQ the shooter. The other one is safe. Both require approximately two pounds of pressure on the trigger before the bullet is ignited and sent out of the barrel at a dangerous speed.

Also, every major match RO I've talked to tells me if something is breaking the 180 if I ask about it before hand. If you're an RO, and you don't, you are a **** and you're pushing people away from the sport. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice analogy, if you ignore that people who participate in this sport agree to follow the rules.

If you don't like the game, don't play. If you really don't like it, and feel the need to play, suck it up and try to change the rules in a way accepted by the game that you chose to play.

Mark

***Editted to put reply down here, not in quote box.***

Edited September 17, 2013 by mhs

[Rick88]

Was his 2011 on a barrel pointed down range with the manual safety off less dangerous than a Glock with a competition trigger on the same barrel, or in a holster? One of these guns will automatically DQ the shooter. The other one is safe.

Well, since you brought this up glocks with the adjustable pretravel screw are often screwed in to far trying to get that 1911 feel and the result is that the trigger safety no longer engages. There are many glocks at our matches like this but as an RO how are we to know? and what can be done? I consider this to be a very unsafe gun.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Rick88

[whitedog]

Approx 2 lbs of pressure? On a glock? How do I make that happen? Hell, I'll settle on 3 or so...

[Nik Habicht]

Well, since you brought this up glocks with the adjustable pretravel screw are often screwed in to far trying to get that 1911 feel and the result is that the trigger safety no longer engages. There are many glocks at our matches like this but as an RO how are we to know? and what can be done? I consider this to be a very unsafe gun.

If Chronoman knows what he's doing, that gun might very well need to be repaired or withdrawn from the match.....

[IHAVEGAS]

I'm not saying what the OP did is right or wrong.

He was wrong.

It is a growth thang

"Hardship refines the spirit, and the best time to refine the spirit is when you don't have any other option".

Have been thinking a bit about the dynamics of a trigger assembly / unbound spring mass system / when a gun comes to a sudden stop. Still like grip safeties on a 1911, there are practical limits to my personal growth .

[IHAVEGAS]

Approx 2 lbs of pressure? On a glock? How do I make that happen? Hell, I'll settle on 3 or so...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/153418/glockworx-race-connector-glock-all-models-2-lb

[Whoops!]

I'm surprised by how many people follow the mentality of "those are the rules so they must be followed." Some rules are obviously worse than others, take certain anti-gun rules for example . . . or the laws still on the books today that were made a hundred years ago and are now made fun of by everyone, even by police officers. Let me ask you this, if there was a rule that none of you could own or drink alcoholic beverages . . . ok, you see where this is going.

I'm not saying what the OP did is right or wrong. I simply ask this. Was his 2011 on a barrel pointed down range with the manual safety off less dangerous than a Glock with a competition trigger on the same barrel, or in a holster? One of these guns will automatically DQ the shooter. The other one is safe. Both require approximately two pounds of pressure on the trigger before the bullet is ignited and sent out of the barrel at a dangerous speed.

Also, every major match RO I've talked to tells me if something is breaking the 180 if I ask about it before hand. If you're an RO, and you don't, you are a **** and you're pushing people away from the sport. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice analogy, if you ignore that people who participate in this sport agree to follow the rules.

If you don't like the game, don't play. If you really don't like it, and feel the need to play, suck it up and try to change the rules in a way accepted by the game that you chose to play.

Mark

***Editted to put reply down here, not in quote box.***

I guess my best response to this is . . . I agree with you.? I never said don't follow the rules. I just said I'm surprised by so many advocating following all rules to the letter no matter what they are. I also mentioned that there are cases today, where everyone, even those advocating following all the rules, don't follow the rules. Some rules are stupid and need to be changed. Until they're changed, do what you decide you should do.

If anything, I may or may not be implicating additional rules against Glocks }

Edited September 17, 2013 by Whoops!

[Gary Stevens]

I'm surprised by how many people follow the mentality of "those are the rules so they must be followed." Some rules are obviously worse than others, take certain anti-gun rules for example . . . or the laws still on the books today that were made a hundred years ago and are now made fun of by everyone, even by police officers. Let me ask you this, if there was a rule that none of you could own or drink alcoholic beverages . . . ok, you see where this is going.

I'm not saying what the OP did is right or wrong. I simply ask this. Was his 2011 on a barrel pointed down range with the manual safety off less dangerous than a Glock with a competition trigger on the same barrel, or in a holster? One of these guns will automatically DQ the shooter. The other one is safe. Both require approximately two pounds of pressure on the trigger before the bullet is ignited and sent out of the barrel at a dangerous speed.

Also, every major match RO I've talked to tells me if something is breaking the 180 if I ask about it before hand. If you're an RO, and you don't, you are a **** and you're pushing people away from the sport. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice analogy, if you ignore that people who participate in this sport agree to follow the rules.

If you don't like the game, don't play. If you really don't like it, and feel the need to play, suck it up and try to change the rules in a way accepted by the game that you chose to play.

Mark

***Editted to put reply down here, not in quote box.***

I guess my best response to this is . . . I agree with you.? I never said don't follow the rules. I just said I'm surprised by so many advocating following all rules to the letter no matter what they are. I also mentioned that there are cases today, where everyone, even those advocating following all the rules, don't follow the rules. Some rules are stupid and need to be changed. Until they're changed, do what you decide you should do.

Could you enlighten us on what rules are stupid and need to be changed?

[Whoops!]

Oh god, I can't go through them all and I certainly don't know them all. http://www.stupidlaws.com/

[ktm300]

I also mentioned that there are cases today, where everyone, even those advocating following all the rules, don't follow the rules. Some rules are stupid and need to be changed. Until they're changed, do what you decide you should do.

If anything, I may or may not be implicating additional rules against Glocks }

You seem to want to mix following rules of law and rules of a game. They are very different. As another posted put it, you choose to play the game, play by the rules or don't play. USPSA has a good way for you to try and change rules, but until they are changed follow them or don't play.

The rule that says you have to have the primary safety on when you holster or put you gun down on a table is a good rule. The Glock has no manual safety so it's primary is internal. The 1911 has a thumb safety and it has to be used.

I don't see what all the fuss is about. He showed up, to a USPSA match and broke a rule that would have DQed him in IDPA and most all the 3Gun matches I have been to. A Glock or another gun without an external safety would have been OK. I guess you could ban Glocks but that is not going to happen. You could add a 5lb trigger requirement for production guns but we all saw how fast that hit the ground early this year.

[Gary Stevens]

Oh god, I can't go through them all and I certainly don't know them all. http://www.stupidlaws.com/

My apologies. I thought you were referring to USPSA rules.

[Whoops!]

Please, don't apologise to me. I was just kidding around.

ktm300 - will that primary internal safety keep the modified Glock from going off when a couple of pounds of pressure are applied to the trigger? Will the manual safety on the 1911? Will the grip safety on the 1911? There is definitely some contradiction in the rules in this case.

Yet again I say, I'm not saying if it's right or wrong. But, I see where the OP is coming from.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Whoops!