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1st non local match dq disaster


IHAVEGAS

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.and I still don't want to be anywhere near you if you think it's ok to leave a loaded weapon on a drum with the safety OFF. You were DQ'ed for an unsafe act.

I now understand that my actions were not according to Hoyle by USPSA rules, and it seems like this thread is giving me the flavor for norms and attitudes, so no further fuss from me on the dq.

Not that it matters but as stated previously the gun was not left on a drum with no safety engaged, it was placed on a flat table pointing safely down range with yours truly right beside it and the grip safety on. If you feel that my action was in any way unsafe then I accept that that is your opinion, we just disagree.

I think somebody could make a valid point that the r.o. had know way of knowing that a functional safety was engaged on my gun, which supports the dq ruling. Also as far as I know there could be data somewhere that shows that most or all polymer guns with none or no more than legal legal trigger work are less likely to fire due to impact than most or all limited guns, this could support your opinion.

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Hmmm...over 5k posts...to your 33...I think I know the rules here pretty good...and I still don't want to be anywhere near you if you think it's ok to leave a loaded weapon on a drum with the safety OFF. You were DQ'ed for an unsafe act. While the NRA may say it's ok to do what you did, USPSA does not think it's ok. Whether you get away with it in a local match is immaterial, other than the fact that you are STILL unsafe there if you do it, and the RO's at your local match should be reported to the NROI for allowing such instances to occur.

lol, well, we've certainly figure out who is more aergerlich in this thread.

For the OP, I'm sure it's annoying to be dq'd, but it's a pretty basic rule, and not connected in any way with whether it's wise for people that don't want to practice to pin their grip safeties. Learn from the experience, learn the rest of the rules, ignore grumpy old people, shoot well and have a good life.

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It was left on the drum without the safety engaged, per USPSA rules

.8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 8.1.2.3 8.1.2.4 8.1.3 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked. “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter

Not all 1911's have a grip safety.....hence the rule to have the THUMB safety engaged.

And, since you were DQ'ed, it obviously isn't just my opinion that you were unsafe. Besides, I would agree with you, if you were right. ;)

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"Not wanting to squad with a shooter who has his grip safety pinned"?

Yes. Personal preference I know, but I have seen guns dropped (very cold weather draw stoke), and guns holstered without the manual safety applied (shooter going back and forth between 1911 and Glock) and I think the grip safety increases the odds of everybody coming home safe.

I don't know of any other sport where it is considered safe to pin the safety, and I know of ranges that outlaw draws entirely or are in danger of voting to do so even with all safety's intact, but perhaps there are other sports where this is ok and the at risk range clubs would not feel additional heartburn about safety devices being disabled?? Maybe it is ok for steels matches?

I'm trying to understand the situation better.

Your statement above (surrounding the part the I made bold/red) seems to condemn holstering a gun without the manual safety applied, as an unsafe action. Am I understanding this correctly?

Under USPSA rules, such an action is considered unsafe and receives a DQ. It's unclear to me if you already know this USPSA rule (10.5.11.1 and 10.5.11.2).

USPSA rules consider the action which earned your DQ (listed in your OP), and the action above (bold/red) as comparable. It's unclear to me if you already know this. It's also unclear to me if you think the two situations are significantly different.

I'm interested in your comments.

Respectfully,

ac

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Put your 1911 style gun on a barrel or in the holster without putting on the safety would get you a DQ from me no matter what level of match we are at.

USPSA's safety record stands as a testament to the value the rule book puts on safety. Hundreds of matches a month and the record is outstanding. RO's that don't enforce the rule book shouldn't be RO's.

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"Not wanting to squad with a shooter who has his grip safety pinned"?

Yes. Personal preference I know, but I have seen guns dropped (very cold weather draw stoke), and guns holstered without the manual safety applied (shooter going back and forth between 1911 and Glock) and I think the grip safety increases the odds of everybody coming home safe.

I don't know of any other sport where it is considered safe to pin the safety, and I know of ranges that outlaw draws entirely or are in danger of voting to do so even with all safety's intact, but perhaps there are other sports where this is ok and the at risk range clubs would not feel additional heartburn about safety devices being disabled?? Maybe it is ok for steels matches?

I'm trying to understand the situation better.

Your statement above (surrounding the part the I made bold/red) seems to condemn holstering a gun without the manual safety applied, as an unsafe action. Am I understanding this correctly?

Under USPSA rules, such an action is considered unsafe and receives a DQ. It's unclear to me if you already know this USPSA rule (10.5.11.1 and 10.5.11.2).

USPSA rules consider the action which earned your DQ (listed in your OP), and the action above (bold/red) as comparable. It's unclear to me if you already know this. It's also unclear to me if you think the two situations are significantly different.

I'm interested in your comments.

Respectfully,

ac

In one situation the muzzle is pointed safely down range 100% of the time. In the other situation it is often pointed slightly up range and/or at the shooters body, depending on stance holster body type and etc..

I haven't checked the blue book but I know in a similar sport a specific exception is made for muzzleing the shooters body during draw, not because anyone feels good about it but because it can be a practical necessity.

You could make a case that the gun could be bobbled while transferring from flat table to hand and end up pointing in an unsafe direction, if you feel this is a reasonable possibility then I understand your concern.

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Mr IHAVEGAS. If you choose to play USPSA you are required to play by the rules. All the rules all the time. Club matches should be run just as safely as any other match. You think just because you're new you should get breaks for safety, ummmm no. The RO politely offered you a way to keep playing. You choose to ignore advice from a person you ALWAYS listen to when shooting a COF.

Man up, read the rules and accept it. Those rules are there for everyones safety.

RO stage 4 2013 IL Sectional.

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Mr IHAVEGAS. If you choose to play USPSA you are required to play by the rules.

I now understand that my actions were not according to Hoyle by USPSA rules, and it seems like this thread is giving me the flavor for norms and attitudes, so no further fuss from me on the dq.

Something I was curious about, there was no offering of a new shooters meeting or I would have been there. Probably would not have helped in my case but you never know.

Maybe that is just the way it is done in this sport and new or only modestly experienced shooters are not supposed to attend the level 2 and above matches? There is also perhaps something somewhere telling people what level of rule book expertise is expected from them before signing up?

Please nobody take offense to the above, when you don't know stuff you don't know stuff. At the local matches I've gone to we all get to hear a refresher of the basics if desired and I expected this would be part of a sectional match as well. My error.

I don't think I've implied anything derogatory about the host club or the r.o. involved in my posts, if so that was due to my poor writing skills and not my intent.

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Gas,

Level 2 and 3 matches tend to have more complicated stages and they usually fill up way before the match date. That means minimum chatter between the staff and competitions on the stage to get shooters through the match smoothly and in a timely fashion. After the stage brief, you can expect that the next thing you will hear from the RO is "Make Ready". Any questions about the rules should be been asked and answered long before that point. Any questions about the stage should be asked at the end of the stage brief. Read the book (often) and learn the rules as best as you can. If you know the rules, you may find a way to shoot a stage that could save you a good amount of time :devil:

There is no guide for level of rule expertise. You are expected to know the rules. Period. Not knowing the rules is just like picking a pair of shoes that do not allow you to run well. You can do it but it might not be the best strategy for success in the match! ;)

Welcome to the sport!

Chuck

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Mr IHAVEGAS. If you choose to play USPSA you are required to play by the rules.

I now understand that my actions were not according to Hoyle by USPSA rules, and it seems like this thread is giving me the flavor for norms and attitudes, so no further fuss from me on the dq.

Something I was curious about, there was no offering of a new shooters meeting or I would have been there. Probably would not have helped in my case but you never know.

Maybe that is just the way it is done in this sport and new or only modestly experienced shooters are not supposed to attend the level 2 and above matches? There is also perhaps something somewhere telling people what level of rule book expertise is expected from them before signing up?

Please nobody take offense to the above, when you don't know stuff you don't know stuff. At the local matches I've gone to we all get to hear a refresher of the basics if desired and I expected this would be part of a sectional match as well. My error.

I don't think I've implied anything derogatory about the host club or the r.o. involved in my posts, if so that was due to my poor writing skills and not my intent.

Yes the assumption is made that people spending the amount it costs to shoot a LII match have shot a few local matches and at least have an understanding of what the safety rules are and what is going to get them sent home.

The USPSA rule book is available on line at no charge and the two sections you need to read and understand (chapters 8 and 10) are a total of 12 pages. Every sport has it's rules. Sports with guns have some very specific rules due to the need for safety. If the local matches you went to are not enforcing the rule book they do you a disservice in more than one way. They are not as safe as they can be. By being lax on the rules they set you up to fail at a bigger match where the RO's are going to call it by the rules, as they should. I would much rather get my 1st DQ out of the way at a local match than a state or area match.

What happens now is up to you. Learn the rules and come have fun shooting the more complicated matches, or keep shooting the local stuff and skip the big matches.

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Something I was curious about, there was no offering of a new shooters meeting or I would have been there. Probably would not have helped in my case but you never know.

Maybe that is just the way it is done in this sport and new or only modestly experienced shooters are not supposed to attend the level 2 and above matches? There is also perhaps something somewhere telling people what level of rule book expertise is expected from them before signing up?

Typically a new shooter's briefing is something you will see at a local match (they'll ask if there are any new shooters, and go over the basic safety rules with them). I haven't seen one at a level II or higher match. I think it is assumed that shooters at those matches are more experienced and knowledgeable.

IMHO, it is on you to at least read the basic safety rules before showing up even to a local match, so you are familiar with the concepts and can ask questions about anything that is unclear.

We dq'd a gentleman at an area match for moving between positions (3 different times) without ever removing his finger from the trigger guard. His argument was that no one had ever told him that. Well, now he knows for sure, and reading the rules in advance could have saved him some time and expense.

I hope you'll continue with USPSA, but take the time to learn and ask questions. When I first started shooting, I would ask the RO's at local matches what I could and couldn't do, especially regarding the manual safety on guns equipped with such.

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Here's where the disservice to you has occured. I'll re-iterate this one more time and see if it's clearer.

Your local club is supposed to run matches with the exact same rules, with the same results, and the same course construction as any other USPSA match -AT EVERY OTHER LEVEL. There are VERY few exceptions available and I think some of those are dissappearing. - none of those exceptions apply to safety. One is that you can declare that activated targets are not to be engaged until they are activated, etc.

Once you get to a level II match, the education part should be over. You have your fellow shooters, but the match staff is there to run the match - not create new shooters. See - there is supposed to be no difference between your level I local match new shooters briefing than there is for a level II. you just asked why there would not be a new shooters briefing at a level II. It means to me that you continue to assume that the rules are "different" for level II. They aren't. They are the same. You're level I local match has not enforced them properly. Therefore you never knew what was right and what wasn't - for whatever the reason.

Do understand - When I say USPSA may not be for you - it's not a shot at you. What we are really supposed to be doing - what your local match and majors up to nationals are SUPPOSED to be doing may not be what you want to do with your shooting - and that's ok. When I hear your opinion about a grip safety vs the thumb safety - anyone that knows the internals of the 1911 knows that the grip safety just might keep the trigger bow from coming back. The rest of the mechanism is susceptible to shock without the thumb safety applied. They work differently and independently. Some people's grips can not disengage a grip safety. You're the first person that I know that puts any faith - at all - in the 1911 grip safety. The rules you were DQ'd for are the rules of USPSA - and you should have been DQ'd at your home club for them as well.

The same concept will occur if you show up, signup for production and have your magazines in front of your belly button. Or on an unloaded start I actually bump a shooter to open for not removing the barney bullet from their first mag. I'm the rules nazi right? Maybe, but they won't forget those issues when it comes time to go to a major.

Book over, as I said, best of luck.

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This is a learning experience. A tip I tell many is if you are new to the sport, or to higher level matches, talk to the staff. There are squads that are made up of knowledgeable but casual shooters who would be more than happy to walk you through the rules. The staff knows who they are and would gladly introduce you to the members. We do not like to DQ anybody, we would rather teach you.

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"Not wanting to squad with a shooter who has his grip safety pinned"?

Yes. Personal preference I know, but I have seen guns dropped (very cold weather draw stoke), and guns holstered without the manual safety applied (shooter going back and forth between 1911 and Glock) and I think the grip safety increases the odds of everybody coming home safe.

I don't know of any other sport where it is considered safe to pin the safety, and I know of ranges that outlaw draws entirely or are in danger of voting to do so even with all safety's intact, but perhaps there are other sports where this is ok and the at risk range clubs would not feel additional heartburn about safety devices being disabled?? Maybe it is ok for steels matches?

I'm trying to understand the situation better.

Your statement above (surrounding the part the I made bold/red) seems to condemn holstering a gun without the manual safety applied, as an unsafe action. Am I understanding this correctly?

Under USPSA rules, such an action is considered unsafe and receives a DQ. It's unclear to me if you already know this USPSA rule (10.5.11.1 and 10.5.11.2).

USPSA rules consider the action which earned your DQ (listed in your OP), and the action above (bold/red) as comparable. It's unclear to me if you already know this. It's also unclear to me if you think the two situations are significantly different.

I'm interested in your comments.

Respectfully,

ac

In one situation the muzzle is pointed safely down range 100% of the time. In the other situation it is often pointed slightly up range and/or at the shooters body, depending on stance holster body type and etc..

I haven't checked the blue book but I know in a similar sport a specific exception is made for muzzleing the shooters body during draw, not because anyone feels good about it but because it can be a practical necessity.

You could make a case that the gun could be bobbled while transferring from flat table to hand and end up pointing in an unsafe direction, if you feel this is a reasonable possibility then I understand your concern.

Thank you for the clear reply - I understand your position better now.

Sincerely,

ac

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Do understand - When I say USPSA may not be for you - it's not a shot at you.

Agreed, understood, and no offense taken!

This thread has been a useful learning experience for me though (and I'm not going to play point counter point on the gs with this crowd :)) .

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This is a learning experience. A tip I tell many is if you are new to the sport, or to higher level matches, talk to the staff. There are squads that are made up of knowledgeable but casual shooters who would be more than happy to walk you through the rules. The staff knows who they are and would gladly introduce you to the members. We do not like to DQ anybody, we would rather teach you.

As would I. Shame. I would have been glad to help out.

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When I shot my first Level 2 match, I had a grand total of three club matches under my belt -- and almost got disqualified at one of them for setting my gun on the ground, in order to get up from prone. (Little experience with prone at the time). What saved me was that I had instinctively unloaded the gun and locked the slide open before setting her down.....

That was 12 years ago -- so the rules for setting guns down have been around a while.....

For that level 2 match -- I wasn't sure that I had the requisite experience, despite a couple of years of IDPA experience. Fortunately Brian had just started this forum, I asked the question and Chris Grubbe volunteered to squad with me and get me through the Mid-Atlantic Sectionals. He was a goldmine of good advice during the match -- it was a very lovely and generous form of making me feel welcome in the sport.

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IHAVEGAS,

There are quite a few new shooters that read this forum. Thanks for going through your experience at a Level 2 match and informing those that do not know what the correct starting position would be for a 1911-style firearm sitting on a table.

You probably saved more than one person from going home early.

That's really what this place is all about, passing along information, some of which was learned at the school of hard knocks.

BC

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That's really what this place is all about, passing along information, some of which was learned at the school of hard knocks.

"Sometimes it seems that your life's whole purpose is to serve as a warning to others"

Author unknown

:)

Here's where the disservice to you has occured.

Figured I should make sure something is clear. It is extremely likely that the local club told me exactly what I should have been told, and they are very safety conscious and seem to be very well respected by visiting USPSA gurus (the guys with the fancy guns & many colored shirts and stuff).

I was an xdm person at first and may not have payed proper attention to rules for other guns, or may just have forgotten what I needed to know when the stars aligned right and it was that kind of a start with that kind of a gun.

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I can understand that. I have had shooters ask me if they can:

1. Start the unloaded, off body start, stage with the slide locked to the rear? NO 8.1.3

2. Start with their first magazine in their hand? NO 8.2.3

3. Start with their hand on the gun? NO 8.2.3

4. Start with the hammer back on an unloaded start? NO 8.1.3

5 Start the loaded, off body start, with the hammer cocked on their production gun? NO 8.1.2.3 and App D-4 Production division.

So you are not the first to miss or not understand all of the nuances of handgun ready procedures and rules.

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OP, as you ponder your plight, keep in mind that no "new shooters meeting" I've ever attended or observed included guidance on every single rule, and I certainly can't recall discussion of 10.5.3. It's just part of the rules of the road.

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"If I stick to just local matches; I will be shooting in a more 'just keep it safe and fun' environment, the R.O's won't have to be uptight about what so and so might do and can continue to be more new shooter/casual shooter friendly, I will save a bunch of money and sleep, I will still be dq'd if I ever actually do break one of the 4 laws of gun safety (this is a very good thing!), and I will not have to worry so much about weird no warning rulebook dq's because somebody on some committee somewhere decided stuff like "well it is ok if you disable your grip safety, and it is ok if your gun does not have any safety, but if you have a thumb safety and put the gun on the table pointing safely down range then that is not ok".

Most of the USPSA DQ provisions are with safety in mind. The others are to prevent people from being jerks. You make it sound like all of the USPSA safety rules are irrelevant of the 4 rules of gun safety. They are meant to address the fast paced and dynamic atmosphere of action pistol shooting. These are not obscure things that are meant to DQ you. As others have stated, I think it's great that you had the gumption to post your thoughts here so that others may learn, but respectfully I think your mentality is off here. The reasons for why have already been stated by others.

In terms of rules, the ones that are important to you as a beginner are things that can get you DQed, the range commands and what they mean, and the rules regarding the equipment you are using.

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"If I stick to just local matches; I will be shooting in a more 'just keep it safe and fun' environment, the R.O's won't have to be uptight about what so and so might do and can continue to be more new shooter/casual shooter friendly, I will save a bunch of money and sleep, I will still be dq'd if I ever actually do break one of the 4 laws of gun safety (this is a very good thing!), and I will not have to worry so much about weird no warning rulebook dq's because somebody on some committee somewhere decided stuff like "well it is ok if you disable your grip safety, and it is ok if your gun does not have any safety, but if you have a thumb safety and put the gun on the table pointing safely down range then that is not ok".

Most of the USPSA DQ provisions are with safety in mind. The others are to prevent people from being jerks. You make it sound like all of the USPSA safety rules are irrelevant of the 4 rules of gun safety. They are meant to address the fast paced and dynamic atmosphere of action pistol shooting. These are not obscure things that are meant to DQ you. As others have stated, I think it's great that you had the gumption to post your thoughts here so that others may learn, but respectfully I think your mentality is off here. The reasons for why have already been stated by others.

In terms of rules, the ones that are important to you as a beginner are things that can get you DQed, the range commands and what they mean, and the rules regarding the equipment you are using.

We respectfully disagree about the one particular ruling application, so far I have found it unique to just this one particular gun sport, as well as the allowance for disabling a safety device that many others outside (and some inside) USPSA feel could prevent injury.

Whether or not there are other things in the book that would seem wrong to me I do not know, my assumption is that this section of the Enos forum (and the warning about rude behavior) exists because there are rules that other folks feel are either hard to interpret or not as good as they might be.

I understand that many, most, or perhaps even all, others on this forum do not share my opinions on these issues, but they are honest opinions and ,if it matters, they are not unique to just me.

As has been wisely suggested to me, "if you no likea da rules then no playa da game :rolleyes: ".

No offense intended.

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