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1st non local match dq disaster


IHAVEGAS

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Hi,

Have enjoyed USPSA at local matches for about a year so I figured I'd try traveling to a slightly bigger match today. Had a couple things happen that surprised me & I want to look up in the rule book so I can understand.

Thing number one was that I was 1st shooter on a stage and the way I wanted to run the course of fire would have me close on 1 target with the 180 degree rule. I thought I was ok but wanted to make sure the range officer thought the same thing because it was going to be close. I asked the R.O. if the shot was on the correct side of 180 degrees and he told me, as best I can remember word for word, "You are supposed to know what 180 degrees is and I can't answer that question before you run the course". I was surprised at the response and would like to know if that is the way it is and if there is clear definition of what you can ask or be told about a cof and what you can't.

On the very next stage you placed your gun on a table pointing down range, loaded and chambered, sat down in a chair and then proceeded to get up and remove the gun from the table at the beep. I placed my 2011 on the table with the thumb safety in the off position and sat down. The RO asked if I was ready and hinted that there was something wrong, after it was apparent that I didn't know what he was hinting at I was dq'd from the match for a safety violation.

As fate would have it I now had ample time on my hands to study rule books while I waited on my friend to enjoy his shooting. To me it seems like I got a safety dq without doing anything which violates the 4 rules of gun safety or which would earn a dq under section 10.5. I asked for explanation of the dq and was shown section 8 and then pointed back toward section 10.5 but I'm missing the point somehow unless it is an issue with section 10.5.3 and "during a course of fire" means before the buzzer sounds as well as while you are actually running the course. If this is a section 10.5 thing I guess I'm back to question 1 and wondering why the r.o. couldn't just tell me to flip the safety (a different r.o. told my friend that he had forgotten his earmuffs after he had said he was ready to shoot another stage for example, no penalty no hassle etc) .

The only other possibility that I can come up with it that this is some kind of 'understood' generic section 10.3.1 thing about unsafe gun handling, but I heard the r.o's call trigger when appropriate with another shooter so it seems like that section of the book is not used aggressively as the norm.

Anyway, if anyone cares to pull away some of the haze it would be interesting.

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Your scoresheet from the stage should have the reason and supporting rule for the DQ on it.

You were in violation of 8.1.2.1. but it would be interesting to this discussion to know what the RO used to justify the DQ.

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Your first question is just kind of a judgment call, but I think the RO was technically correct. Personally had it been me I'd have replied with a yes or no and that's it. He can't coach you.

On your second question, the stage begins at the "make ready" command. Now read the paragraph at 8.1, then go straight to 8.1.2.1

Bottom line is anytime you ground a hot gun with the safety NOT engaged it's a DQ.

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1. The course of fire begins at make ready.

2. The rule you were dq for is 10.5.3.4 and you need to read all of 10.5.3 Essentially, when you place the gun it needs to be in the ready condition. It's the same as if you holstered it with the safety off. The safety violation occurred as soon as you left control of the weapon and it was off safe. The ro has only one option at this point, and that's a dq.

3. It sucks, but that's the rules, and there's several very good reasons that they apply universally instead of differently than after the start signal.

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Also. There's a fine line between coaching a competitor on how to run the course and giving you the right information so you can determine if it would be a safety violation. Asking "where is the 180 here" would get you the same response, albeit probably a bit better wording from me. More appropriately, if you go stand where you are concerned and airgun the engagement and ask " is this breaking 180" they should be able to answer yes or no. Hope that helps.

Think about this from the ro shoes for a second. You ask where the 180 is and he tells you specifically x. You do x and all is fine until you pop a reload as soon as you shoot two rounds from x and break it doing the reload. What happens then? We have an argument - " you said shooting this from here was fine" - " yes, and it was until you performed a reload and shoved your muzzle past the 180. " - "but you didn't tell me not to reload there"... How much coaching is too much? The answer is any. There's a lot more that happens than just where the target is during the run. See where his point is now?

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The major matches I've been the ROs were more than forthcoming about whether breaking a shot at a particular point would constitute an unsafe muzzle direction. They almost always include the caveat that it may be on the ragged edge, and to mind reloads, etc.

But, yes, unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, you are responsible for making ready the handgun in accordance with the listed ready conditions, and laying down/holstering an SAO handgun without the thumb safety applied is a safe handling issue.

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Your RO was being very nice before he DQ'ed you. As soon as you placed the gun on the table with the safety off and took your hand away you should have been DQ'ed. The fact that he gave you the opportunity to fix it before he DQ'ed you is something he should not have done.

As to the 180 I would have let you know if the angle was a 180 violation or not. Like aztecdirver said what you do with the muzzle going into or out of that position could still lead to you being DQ'ed. I try to avoid situations like that by placing NS or walls to restrict your ability to see the target before you reach the 180.

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Folks,

Thanks for the education!

Woke up this morning and had one of those light bulb moments :)

If I stick to just local matches; I will be shooting in a more 'just keep it safe and fun' environment, the R.O's won't have to be uptight about what so and so might do and can continue to be more new shooter/casual shooter friendly, I will save a bunch of money and sleep, I will still be dq'd if I ever actually do break one of the 4 laws of gun safety (this is a very good thing!), and I will not have to worry so much about weird no warning rulebook dq's because somebody on some committee somewhere decided stuff like "well it is ok if you disable your grip safety, and it is ok if your gun does not have any safety, but if you have a thumb safety and put the gun on the table pointing safely down range then that is not ok".

I very much appreciate your comments. When I read them as a whole it is just clear that the formal matches sound really good for folks who are really into things, but not for somebody like me who is just a keep it safe and have fun shooter.

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In theory, and according to the rules, the exact same thing should have happened at your local match. All USPSA matches, no matter the level are supposed to apply the rules the same. There are some exceptions for a level 1, but they don't apply here.

Had your local match actually applied the rules, as they should, nothing that happened would have been a surprise.

This is exactly the problem with some clubs applying what rules they wish to use.

Sorry on yer DQ....

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Folks,

Thanks for the education!

Woke up this morning and had one of those light bulb moments :)

If I stick to just local matches; I will be shooting in a more 'just keep it safe and fun' environment, the R.O's won't have to be uptight about what so and so might do and can continue to be more new shooter/casual shooter friendly, I will save a bunch of money and sleep, I will still be dq'd if I ever actually do break one of the 4 laws of gun safety (this is a very good thing!), and I will not have to worry so much about weird no warning rulebook dq's because somebody on some committee somewhere decided stuff like "well it is ok if you disable your grip safety, and it is ok if your gun does not have any safety, but if you have a thumb safety and put the gun on the table pointing safely down range then that is not ok".

I very much appreciate your comments. When I read them as a whole it is just clear that the formal matches sound really good for folks who are really into things, but not for somebody like me who is just a keep it safe and have fun shooter.

If you have been shooting local matches for a year then the clubs RO's and officials have been doing you a disservice. We all will let things slide a bit when we deal with new shooters as we explain what rule is being broken. That is why we are allowed to "Coach" the shooter under 8.6.2.1. Part of the that new shooter coaching is ensuring that ALL applicable safety rules are being followed. Your local RO's should have explained the requirement to apply the thumb safety after making ready whether the gun is in your holster or placed off body.

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

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If you ask an RO a specific question about where the 180 is at a specific spot,they should give you a yes or no answer as to whether shooting from that position is a 180 violation. That is not coaching, that is defining the 180.

As for the safety, that is on you to know your gun is in the prescribed ready conditions with safeties applied.

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I may be mistaken, but i remember hearing / reading somewhere that the original design of the 1911 was without the grip safety. It was incorporated into the design due to army requesting it.

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The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

I agree. For some people, uspsa isn't their thing. I once had a guy pull back into sul and spin out of a tight position perfectly. Did it awesomely and safely. Didn't come close to violating one of the 4 safety rules and I loved the move. He still went home with a dq for breaking 180.

For some people, uspsa is just too strict on certain aspects and I get and appreciate it.

No offense taken. Best of luck to you.

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

The grip safety is not the main safety on a 1911/2011 design, the thumb safety that is why it is ok to have it disabled or pinned

Local Matches should be ran the same as major matches, and even in the new rulebook they have taken away some of the "only at level 1" matches is this ok, now it is the same as a level 2 matches.

Take the RO course, get certified, learn the rules, not only will it help you become a better competitor you can then also give back to your local clubs by running the timer as an RO. You learn a ton about this sport from behind the timer

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

The grip safety is not the main safety on a 1911/2011 design, the thumb safety that is why it is ok to have it disabled or pinned

Local Matches should be ran the same as major matches, and even in the new rulebook they have taken away some of the "only at level 1" matches is this ok, now it is the same as a level 2 matches.

Take the RO course, get certified, learn the rules, not only will it help you become a better competitor you can then also give back to your local clubs by running the timer as an RO. You learn a ton about this sport from behind the timer

We can agree to disagree about the grip safety :). To me that rule to USPSA is what the fishing vests rule is to IDPA, except the fishing vests just seem silly and not safety related.

If you look at aztecdrivers post at 9:21 it seems like that really nails down the grip safety issue. If someone with a pinned gs on a light trigger 1911 slips, trips, baubles the draw, or bangs his hand into a range prop & drops his gun (things I'm guessing you have seen happen more than once) it seems possible that a bullet will be flying in an uncontrolled direction. Obviously a grip safety would not provide 100% protection for every mishap, but it should keep a few rounds out of the air over time. The whole safety thing is that one mishap in a lifetime is way to many (as I'm sure you already know, sounds like I'm being condescending and that is not intended). My preference is not to squad with folks who have their grip safety's disabled if I can help it.

In my opinion.

I agree with you completely about doing something to support your local club!!

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

The grip safety is not the main safety on a 1911/2011 design, the thumb safety that is why it is ok to have it disabled or pinned

Local Matches should be ran the same as major matches, and even in the new rulebook they have taken away some of the "only at level 1" matches is this ok, now it is the same as a level 2 matches.

Take the RO course, get certified, learn the rules, not only will it help you become a better competitor you can then also give back to your local clubs by running the timer as an RO. You learn a ton about this sport from behind the timer

We can agree to disagree about the grip safety :). To me that rule to USPSA is what the fishing vests rule is to IDPA, except the fishing vests just seem silly and not safety related.

If you look at aztecdrivers post at 9:21 it seems like that really nails down the grip safety issue. If someone with a pinned gs on a light trigger 1911 slips, trips, baubles the draw, or bangs his hand into a range prop & drops his gun (things I'm guessing you have seen happen more than once) it seems possible that a bullet will be flying in an uncontrolled direction. Obviously a grip safety would not provide 100% protection for every mishap, but it should keep a few rounds out of the air over time. The whole safety thing is that one mishap in a lifetime is way to many (as I'm sure you already know, sounds like I'm being condescending and that is not intended). My preference is not to squad with folks who have their grip safety's disabled if I can help it.

In my opinion.

I agree with you completely about doing something to support your local club!!

I am not saying I agree with the rule on grip safeties, just giving the reason it is the way it is. Actually all mine work except on one gun, and that is just the way my builder did it, I forgot to tell him to leave it as is.

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

"Very comfortable with what you did in regards to safety"? Please tell me where you are located so I can stay far, far away...

If you are comfortable breaking that rule, what other rules are you comfortable breaking?

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

"Very comfortable with what you did in regards to safety"? Please tell me where you are located so I can stay far, far away...

If you are comfortable breaking that rule, what other rules are you comfortable breaking?

Breaking this one (below) would make me uncomfortable. Or doing anything that would break any of the 4 rules of gun safety, as I already noted in previous posts. If you've had NRA approved (or similar) safety training you know that following the 4 rules is a really good and long proven approach to gun safety.

"New Guidelines for Rules Forum Due to incessant bickering typical of the Rules Forum, we've (Admin/Moderators) come close to deleting the Rules Forum altogether. (Several times.) We've decided to keep it (by a narrow margin), however, with this stipulation:

No antagonistic tones will be tolerated.

Please post respectfully or don't post at all."

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"Not wanting to squad with a shooter who has his grip safety pinned"?

Yes. Personal preference I know, but I have seen guns dropped (very cold weather draw stoke), and guns holstered without the manual safety applied (shooter going back and forth between 1911 and Glock) and I think the grip safety increases the odds of everybody coming home safe.

I don't know of any other sport where it is considered safe to pin the safety, and I know of ranges that outlaw draws entirely or are in danger of voting to do so even with all safety's intact, but perhaps there are other sports where this is ok and the at risk range clubs would not feel additional heartburn about safety devices being disabled?? Maybe it is ok for steels matches?

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Your comments lead me to believe you think that rule has no bearing on safety. I assure you, it does. Leaving my open pistol on a table with the safety off is not anywhere near leaving a glock the same way. I can assure you if snatch my gun and it goes off its going to end up on the ground and quite possibly once again when it hits the ground.

When we say the rules are the rules. That's not to say they are trivial and without purpose in a uspsa match - and if locals are indeed not enforcing them locally doing a huge disservice to helping make your majors a pleasant experience. Despite you owning the dq, they own part of it for not properly mentoring you.

Take the proper lesson and not avoiding majors because they make you do it right. Learn the rules and become an ro and make your locals do it right.

The whole 'it is ok to disable your grip safety' thing (I would never consider this safe, to me it is just crazy) sort of puts me too far away from others to have a valuable exchange on the topic. I'd also have to read about how heavily modified the glock and etc triggers can be in order to have an opinion on any comparison to your gun. Yuck, life is too short for argument.

I'm grateful for all of the input provided on this thread, very comfortable with what I did in regard to safety, and every post I read makes it more clear that just staying away from the environments that are not geared toward new or casual shooters is the right thing for me personally.

No offense intended to anyone. Again my thanks!!

"Very comfortable with what you did in regards to safety"? Please tell me where you are located so I can stay far, far away...

If you are comfortable breaking that rule, what other rules are you comfortable breaking?

Breaking this one (below) would make me uncomfortable. Or doing anything that would break any of the 4 rules of gun safety, as I already noted in previous posts. If you've had NRA approved (or similar) safety training you know that following the 4 rules is a really good and long proven approach to gun safety.

"New Guidelines for Rules Forum Due to incessant bickering typical of the Rules Forum, we've (Admin/Moderators) come close to deleting the Rules Forum altogether. (Several times.) We've decided to keep it (by a narrow margin), however, with this stipulation:No antagonistic tones will be tolerated.

Please post respectfully or don't post at all."

Hmmm...over 5k posts...to your 33...I think I know the rules here pretty good...and I still don't want to be anywhere near you if you think it's ok to leave a loaded weapon on a drum with the safety OFF. You were DQ'ed for an unsafe act. While the NRA may say it's ok to do what you did, USPSA does not think it's ok. Whether you get away with it in a local match is immaterial, other than the fact that you are STILL unsafe there if you do it, and the RO's at your local match should be reported to the NROI for allowing such instances to occur.
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