What is sooooo hard about reading match rules

[bigbrowndog]

Stuff like where is the 180 for a specific target, definetly ask the RO. but stuff like not knowing what equipment is legal in your division, thats entirely on the shooter to find out before the match. stuff like what ammo is not allowed, or anything else that may be match specific and is in the rules, completely on the shooter. As a RM if a change has been made to the rules shortly before match start, like a week or two, it should be announced at the shooters meeting and then if the competitors were not at the shooters meeting then its on them. If its not announced then a bit of leeway should be granted, IMHO making changes to rules two weeks or less from match start is not a good idea, unless its due to safety.

Trapr

[ClutchUSMC]

Yeah I'm not against rule clarification and I don't do anything to be mean. An RO's job is NOT customer service. It's to safely and effectively run stages by following the rules. I will answer people, but why should I spend half my day and all my patients giving individual stage info to people that were too busy yapping to listen to the walk through? Especially if it's something we cover explicitly, 3 times in that talk?

That's the difference in a good RO and a great RO. You can run a safe stage and enforce the rules at the same time as providing good service to the competitors. You're being compensated, most times fairly well, to help run the match. Part of that is to be friendly and answer questions.

It's their 5 mins and it's there time to make ready, it doesn't matter if they ask you the same question 25 times you answer it. Don't be a dick.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ClutchUSMC

[Jesse Tischauser]

It's confusing and difficult to remember especially if you shoot a lot of major match or if you're a newbie.

What a great reason to start a thread!

[Chuck Anderson]

I read each rule set before a match but when you shoot two to three majors in the same month it gets really confusing at times. I've also had ROs/RMs confused by their own rule set that don't even know the rules. I watched one group try to figure out if a hot, loaded and chambered pistol that fell out of a holster while the shooter was running and pointed up range was a DQ. The same match an RO came up to me at the safe area and told me I could be DQ'd for having a mag on my belt. He showed me which one by grabbing it and tugging it. I told him I was safe but he had just handled my ammo and could be DQ'd himself. It was obvious he had not read the rules for that match.

Everyone should read and be familiar but with so many small variances between all the matches it's likely people will make mistakes. Just help them and move on.

[HRider]

I usually read the rules specific to the match that I am attending at signup and again just before the match. I will also print a copy of them and have it in my bag. I liked that Rockcastle included the rules in the match book, just wish that we would have been told that you needed to print your own copy of the book and bring it to the match with you. I still ask each RO if it is OK to have 9 preloaded in the tube at the preload table for a hot shotgun start (at matches that allow more than 9 after the beep). I was taught to preload out of my caddies so that you got a last little practice loading and you had a visual of how many shells you just put in the tube.

Thanks Trapr, for being RM at Rockcastle.

Hurley

[MetropolisLake]

We get QUITE a few calls about our products, guys LOOKING at our web site, while on the phone with me and asking the EXACT questions the product description describes, it happens so much it's ALMOST funny.

Yeah but that just means some people just like to talk, they are skeptical of the product, need a confirmation that the description is accurate, or they are on the fence for whatever reason and need a more enthusiastic sales pitch. I sell trailers and people do the same thing all the time even though the things they ask are right there in front of them and I know they read it. They wouldn't know it was a good deal if they didn't read it anyway.

I used to handle it by turning this question around on them, basically asking them what additional information they needed to know that was not on the product description. I didn't win very many sales with those guys. Yeah it sucks but just dealing with it will win more sales.

[MetropolisLake]

From a newbie's perspective, this topic goes beyond simply reading. I think that's too simplistic. For example, here are the match rules for RockCastle:

http://www.rock3gun.com/rules.html

1. It never really comes out and says that if you're crawling around on the ground or running and your pistol falls out of the holster, you're disqualified, but everybody knows that. Is that included with the rule about you not dropping it personally? Doesn't really say. This is nitpicking, but more importantly...

2. Safety plane? It's not defined. Many square ranges don't want you pointing upwards past being horizontal, so that's their idea of the safety plane, but flying clays and reloading would have you doing this. So what exactly is it, and why would a holstered pistol that is pointed downward break it? Is downward what they even mean? It doesn't say. I'm even searching for an explanation and can't figure it out.

3. According to the chatter I hear, you can't sweep your own body with your hand, whatever that means. It'll get you disqualified and I have no idea what it is. Where in these rules does it say that? I don't know what it is, why it's a problem, and there is seemingly no mention of it. Yet if I get DQ'ed, it's my fault for not reading the rules.

Edited September 26, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[bigbrowndog]

If the pistol comes out of the holster and hits the ground, its been dropped whether you touched it or not, by dropped not personally by you are you saying someone else dropped it for you?? because if it came out of the holster at a time that you didn't intend for it to then its unsafe gun handling and you're still DQ'd, or the other person is???

as to sweeping your body with your hand, unless there is a gun in it you can sweep your body all you want???? one of the biggest issues on rules deals with "chatter" people hear rather than reading the rules and asking questions before they get DQ'd rather than after the fact.

I am unaware of any action shooting sport that will allow you to go beyond a 180* shooting area without getting DQ'd, that said some ranges will have stricter than 180* safety angles, on stages that do not take place on "square ranges" the 180 may travel with the shooter depending on target/stage layout but those are discussed in the walkthru. upward, downward, sideways makes no difference its backwards that is the issue, IOW, break the 180* safety angle, if you go prone or some other shooting position it is possible for you to go beyond 180*

all your questions are ones that you could come up with by reading the rules beforehand and asking questions of the MD or RM, and thereby avoiding issues with your interpretation versus the staff's interpretation and being DQ'd. Thats the point I was trying to make by posting this topic, its much better to read and ask beforehand than plead and beg after the fact.

trapr

Edited September 26, 2013 by bigbrowndog

[MetropolisLake]

as to sweeping your body with your hand, unless there is a gun in it you can sweep your body all you want???? one of the biggest issues on rules deals with "chatter" people hear rather than reading the rules and asking questions before they get DQ'd rather than after the fact.

http://www.mn3gungroup.org/

There is an article there specifically on disqualifications and how to avoid them.

"What will earn you a Stage DQ? Stage DQ’s are those infractions that are more specific to 3 gun and the transition between the firearms.

We see match and stage DQ’s at almost every match. The main thing that gets shooters is breaking the 180. Sweeping the competitors own body and hand also account for many DQ’s...

Still have no idea what sweeping even means at this point. Cross referencing it with the FNH rules:

http://www.lchico5u.com/FNH3G/Rules.pdf

"2.5.7 Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of the participant’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping)."

Makes a little more sense. Shouldn't be so confusing and hit or miss on such basic things especially if it's going to disqualify you. I mean, if you're going to belittle people for not reading the rules... why isn't it specifically spelled out in all match rules like in the FNH rules? Once you know the basics I can understand but at first it kind of goes beyond simply reading the match rules. There's a learning curve.

Edited September 26, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Vlad]

I dont understand the notion of stage dq.

[bigbrowndog]

I believe most fo the confusion stems from the fact that the very basic safety rules are believed to be understood, and since the vast majority of shooters come from an USPSA background it is sometimes "understood" that we know the basics.

USPSA/IPSC have the most comprehensive rulebook, most "outlaw" matches utilize or recognize that ruleset, and only publish the differences or "meat" of the ruleset that they will utilize knowing that falling back on the recognized and well established USPSA/IPSC safety rules will be easy to do.

Stage DQ's are typically done for safety violations that aren't "scary", like setting your gun in a drop barrel but its not on safe, now pull the trigger on that same gun as its going in the barrel and its a full DQ. But that gun sitting in the barrel isn't going to jump up and shoot someone by itself, nor is a gun that is unloaded and dropped, or if there is some question as to whether or not you swept your self while placing your handgun in a drop barrel or such, those are things that while serious are not "scary". Please do not take my examples as gospel for all matches or my use of the term "scary" as the only criteria for such an event, I merely am trying to give you a basic understanding of the level of seriousness. I personally don't care for some of those calls, and I also feel that if they are going to be given out that if you get more than one then you should be DQ'd, and maybe take a look at your gun handling skillset.

Edited September 26, 2013 by bigbrowndog

[bigbrowndog]

I think a lot of this could be cleared up with a basic understanding of terms, if you don't know what "sweeping" is in the shooting safety vernacular then its kinda hard to know what rules are saying.

A glossary of shooting terms regarding multigun or 3-gun would be a great topic post on here.

Trapr

[MarkCO]

A glossary of shooting terms regarding multigun or 3-gun would be a great topic post on here.

Trapr

"Really" Trapr Swonson, RM3G 2006 means "Why yes Mark, I did whack the crap out of that birdshot target with a slug and I will gladly pay the $25 to the MGM Junior Camp."

Is that the kind of thing you are thinking about Trapr?

[bigbrowndog]

Mark you forgot that I actually missed that target with a full birdshot pattern but nailed it with a slug, that my friend is "precision"

[MarkCO]

I did not forget.

[jlamphere]

I did not read the rules of golf I must admit before playing the first time.

I did read the 3-gun/multi-gun rules but I again admit that some things I did not understand what they meant before going to the match. I did listen to all the prior briefing but again it was a lot covered it a short period. I would ask questions to get it clear before each stage and I did get conflicting directions from different RO’s ... like yes the safety must be engaged ... then same weapon same situation but no safety engaged. Some of the nomenclature was foreign to me as well but I am learning. I failed to ask a question in my second match even though it did cross my mind but I thought I knew the rule but I was completely wrong and got DQ’d and it was a little embarrassing but I just put my stuff up and took over scorekeeping and setting targets and I KNOW that rule now by heart.

The other 200 or so I may still be a little fuzzy on.

Nothing like some PEs or a DQ to burn the rules into the deep parts of the noggin. I can still see the mag in my hand as I pulled the trigger on that last target. I knew the rule, but he needed shooting. I just signed the card and walked away.

Edited September 27, 2013 by jlamphere

[kurtm]

The rules of ordnance are written in blood. If you don't understand them either ask questions/ read, or pull the pin, all the aforementioned will get compliance one way or another. Sweeping... I don't know what that means so I can ignore it, ask and find out it means pointing MY loaded and more than likely as not off safe firearm at my own appendages or I will blow a hole in my own hand; simple and eventually compliant.

[smokshwn]

Yeah I'm not against rule clarification and I don't do anything to be mean. An RO's job is NOT customer service. It's to safely and effectively run stages by following the rules. I will answer people, but why should I spend half my day and all my patients giving individual stage info to people that were too busy yapping to listen to the walk through? Especially if it's something we cover explicitly, 3 times in that talk?

That's the difference in a good RO and a great RO. You can run a safe stage and enforce the rules at the same time as providing good service to the competitors. You're being compensated, most times fairly well, to help run the match. Part of that is to be friendly and answer questions.

It's their 5 mins and it's there time to make ready, it doesn't matter if they ask you the same question 25 times you answer it. Don't be a dick.

I read each rule set before a match but when you shoot two to three majors in the same month it gets really confusing at times. I've also had ROs/RMs confused by their own rule set that don't even know the rules. I watched one group try to figure out if a hot, loaded and chambered pistol that fell out of a holster while the shooter was running and pointed up range was a DQ. The same match an RO came up to me at the safe area and told me I could be DQ'd for having a mag on my belt. He showed me which one by grabbing it and tugging it. I told him I was safe but he had just handled my ammo and could be DQ'd himself. It was obvious he had not read the rules for that match.

Everyone should read and be familiar but with so many small variances between all the matches it's likely people will make mistakes. Just help them and move on.

These two are spot on (nobody tell Chuck that I agree with him).

While I agree that ultimately it is the shooters responsibility to read the posted match rules, we can only wish it was that simple. Let's not forget the matches that change rules a week/day before or during a match, or the number of RO's who at times don't know the rules or may confuse one ruleset with another. Multiply times 3, 4, 5 or 6 majors a year and its actually pretty damn easy to make mistakes.