idpa classifier...do your absolute best?

[rowdyb]

If anything my experience shows that uspsa underclassifies people. I can't count how many times I've seen people shoot nothing but alphas as a B or A limited shooter and then they get to the classifier stage and all the sudden are shooting two or three mikes. At least half the USPSA shooters I have seen purposely shoot the classifier as poorly as they can and not get publicly shamed for it.

[Bones]

Yes, we should flog them...

My point is, a single calibrated system that encompasses the entire population is superior to one that is not.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Bones

[Thomas H]

If anything my experience shows that uspsa underclassifies people. I can't count how many times I've seen people shoot nothing but alphas as a B or A limited shooter and then they get to the classifier stage and all the sudden are shooting two or three mikes. At least half the USPSA shooters I have seen purposely shoot the classifier as poorly as they can and not get publicly shamed for it.

(Emphasis added by me.)

Wow, you must shoot with some really crappy people, ethics-wise. Seriously, that's what that says.

I'll note that while I don't know the size of your particular experience sample, my experience sample doesn't match yours. And since the vast majority of the large match finishes clearly show that most people are classified correctly in USPSA (GM>M>A>B>C>D in finish) I'm think that perhaps your statement might be overstated, to say the least.

Anyway---back to the IDPA classifier commentary: It is certainly true that in state-level matches, the "match bump" system will periodically bump someone into a higher level that they cannot back up with their actual shooting skills, simply through the statistics as already shown. And since IDPA insists on only really comparing people of similar "class" (even though the rest of us look at overall finish), it isn't as immediately obvious that the person wasn't ready for the match bump. This isn't to say that all match bumps are undeserved---not at all. But it IS true that from simple statistics based on the number of people in various classifications at state-level matches with relatively low attendance, some really are bumping people who just can't back up their classification with actual shooting skills.

[rowdyb]

Hyperbole on my part. I still see nothing wrong with how match bumps are used to promote people. Hell, in uspsa I'm overclassified as a B so not sure that system is fool proof either.

[benoit]

^{Barring intentional actions, your Classifier score will likely not vary more than 10% on any given day at any given skill level.}

^{Food for thought re: the independent IDPA match bump & Classifier classification systems. The system's basic attribute - two independent promotion paths - leads to some interesting outcomes.}

^{Start with 100 Marksmen in any Division. Have them do nothing - no practice, no skill improvement, no equipment change, etc. - but shoot against one another in successive Major matches.}

^{After the 8th match, the system produces it's first MA. After the 33rd match, MAs are the majority. After the 49th match, the system literally locks up and 73% of the participants have been promoted to MA.}

^{I have always supported coupling the systems by requiring a documented classifier score and match result to be promoted - esp. to MA level - or mandating portions of the classifier in major matches to provide a more complete assessment of skill sets. It would also normalize the population distrubtion against the best (100% line) at any given time. No additonal work would be required for the former, as all this data exists(ed) in the system.}

^{Essentially, without a calibration against something - like a 100% line - Classifications are locally subjective and generally imprecise relative to other existing Action Pistol systems.}

^{From some perspectives, there are not too many XXs (pick your Classification), there are too many XXs in XX+1 class. The system as it exists cannot produce any other outcome.}

^{IDPA Match Bump Analysis - starting with 100 Marksmen - same population competing in successive Major matches}

# MM SS EX MA Total

^{1 100 0 0 0 0 100} ...

^{49 9 9 9 73100}

^{Something to think about,}

^Craig

Actually this is not entirely true. Omit the first line, which is the distribution BEFORE the first match (unless the first match is the classifier). Then after the SEVENTH match you produce the first MA, etc etc

[benoit]

^{Barring intentional actions, your Classifier score will likely not vary more than 10% on any given day at any given skill level.}

^{Food for thought re: the independent IDPA match bump & Classifier classification systems. The system's basic attribute - two independent promotion paths - leads to some interesting outcomes.}

^{Start with 100 Marksmen in any Division. Have them do nothing - no practice, no skill improvement, no equipment change, etc. - but shoot against one another in successive Major matches.}

^{After the 8th match, the system produces it's first MA. After the 33rd match, MAs are the majority. After the 49th match, the system literally locks up and 73% of the participants have been promoted to MA.}

^{I have always supported coupling the systems by requiring a documented classifier score and match result to be promoted - esp. to MA level - or mandating portions of the classifier in major matches to provide a more complete assessment of skill sets. It would also normalize the population distrubtion against the best (100% line) at any given time. No additonal work would be required for the former, as all this data exists(ed) in the system.}

^{Essentially, without a calibration against something - like a 100% line - Classifications are locally subjective and generally imprecise relative to other existing Action Pistol systems.}

^{From some perspectives, there are not too many XXs (pick your Classification), there are too many XXs in XX+1 class. The system as it exists cannot produce any other outcome.}

^{IDPA Match Bump Analysis - starting with 100 Marksmen - same population competing in successive Major matches}

# MM SS EX MA Total

^{1 100 0 0 0 0 100} ...

^{49 9 9 9 73100}

^{Something to think about,}

^Craig

Actually this is not entirely true. Omit the first line, which is the distribution BEFORE the first match (unless the first match is the classifier). Then after the SEVENTH match you produce the first MA, etc etc

also (assuming a closed system):

- it takes 7 matches to produce a MA given 100 MMs

- it takes 6 matches to produce a MA given 136 MMs

- it takes 5 matches to produce a MA given 208 MMs

- it takes 4 matches to produce a MA given 388 MMs

- it takes 3 matches to produce a MA given 1000 MMs

(and this is the minimum number of matches required given any set of MMs)

;-)

[Racinready300ex]

If anything my experience shows that uspsa underclassifies people. I can't count how many times I've seen people shoot nothing but alphas as a B or A limited shooter and then they get to the classifier stage and all the sudden are shooting two or three mikes. At least half the USPSA shooters I have seen purposely shoot the classifier as poorly as they can and not get publicly shamed for it.

Some of what you may be seeing is people putting pressure on them selves to do well on the classifier. Then they try to hard, and shoot above there ability and end up with bad hits. But, they are probably more relaxed on the rest of the stages. This is a easy trap to fall into.

Another note, would be at some of the clubs I shoot at will have several hoser stages. Or give shooters the option of getting really close to the targets. Sometimes this makes the classifier the hardest stage to shoot. At least from a marksmenship standpoint.

[alma]

The IDPA Classifier doesn't seem to resemble any IDPA competitions in general.

[BillinTR]

Jumping in late to this thread and I am not a hardcore IDPA participant that goes to a match of some sort every week and attends a number of sanctioned matches. Like a few others have expressed on this thread I am mainly interested in competing against myself and improving and measuring my own skills.

With that said I have often wondered why it is that there is no provision whatsoever for going down in classification. If a person gets a match bump to a skill level that they truly are not competitive at why can't some method of getting bumped the other way be provided. If I were to get bumped up to expert as an example in a particular match and then in my next several matches I was getting soundly beaten by all the SS and some of the MM shooters doesn't that indicate I belong in a lower classification? Certainly I would rightly belong no higher than SS. And yet in IDPA it seems almost impossible to go back. I don't know about USPSA.

Is sandbagging that prevalent that there would be no valid way to provide for this? Since I shoot mostly local matches and have recently made a significant geographical move I have not had an opportunity to shoot a classifier in several years and yet my classification does not change. I am older and slower for a couple of different reasons but have no major physical problems that prevent me from shooting the classifier so no excuses. I know that to shoot a sanctioned match I have to get my classifier up to date and I am doing that soon. But my understanding is that no matter what I do my classification can only go up not down. I certainly want to do as good as I am capable of and no matter what I intend to work on my skills. It just seems that it is legitimately possible to regress at the very least temporarily.

[alma]

Because I would get too discouraged and quit. Seriously I think I remember that USPSA has some process to request moving people down in classification level if there is some significant new fiscal impairment but I doubt it gets used very often.

[Racinready300ex]

People would get bumped and realize they need to work to win at the higher levels and want to go back down for the easy wins in the lower classes.

I used to play paintball when I was younger, and it wasn't uncommon to get to a match to find the Novice division stacked. It was easier to win the amature division then the novice because everyone tried to sandbag when ever they could.

I've seen similar actions in other games too. And you still see sandbagging in IDPA and USPSA as the rules are now.

[BillinTR]

I guess I will never understand the whole notion of sandbagging, especially not in IDPA. What purpose does it serve? Are there that many people whose psyche is so warped they need to validate themselves by beating people in a class they know they do not belong in? It is not like there is money to be made or prizes to be won. You get a trophy whose monetary value is insignificant and if you sandbagged to get it the self esteem value is non-existant. I want to compete against my peers and not be totally dominated by people significantly better then me. But I also want to improve so that I can compete with the better shooters. I am not going to accomplish anything either by being beat down all the time or by doing the beating against shooters I am better than.

[Dkrad1935]

The different classes are a bit of an illusion. Mediocre shooters are mediocre. Haha. You can't hide!

My son was on swim team for a while. And I loved swim meets cause you would have in some events 12 year olds out swimming 18 year olds. Everyone knew where they ranked speed wise. Most races were age group but a 50 second 50 was still a 50 second 50.

Shooting is the same. Everyone knows your skill level as soon as they see you shoot. Regardless of your classification.

Now I know several shooters who should watch themselves on video cause they think they are super ninjas, and love to teach everyone in the squad. Haha

I am not a super ninja, still a padawan learner:)

[Masada]

Like all things shooting (that are not defense related) it's a game. That being said, I don't know if I've ever tried to score lower in a game on purpose. However, I would hate to have an amazing one day run, get stuck with people that are way better than I am and not even be able to compete (no fun). So do you best, and understand what that means. If you are worried about it, shoot a couple matches first and then decide if by classifying in a higher group will make you less competitive and you won't even enjoy participating then make your decision.

I don't think anyone can tell someone you should sand bag, that's just plain dumb. But rather, make them aware of what it means if they just barely break into another classification. Maybe it's time to shoot a different division???

[BillinTR]

Unless yu happen to be exceptional when anyone finally gets promoted into the next higher classification it will probably be a case of "just barely breaking into another classification". You will eventually have to compete against folks who are enough better than you to make you work harder. I just wish there was some way to avoid the problem of having one amazing day and getting stuck in a classification you have no business being in. Like maybe having to do well in multiple matches before you get a bump. But then people in a hurry to move up would start to bitch.

[MrBorland]

Unless yu happen to be exceptional when anyone finally gets promoted into the next higher classification it will probably be a case of "just barely breaking into another classification". You will eventually have to compete against folks who are enough better than you to make you work harder. I just wish there was some way to avoid the problem of having one amazing day and getting stuck in a classification you have no business being in. Like maybe having to do well in multiple matches before you get a bump. But then people in a hurry to move up would start to bitch.

Couple o' points:

First, to get a match bump, you have to beat 9 others in your classification or higher in a sanctioned match, and sanctioned matches tend to attract more and better shooters. You may not be able to do well enough for a bump at every sanctioned match yo shoot, but if you're not doing well enough to possibly get the bump at some match, it's unlikely you'll do so even on your "amazing day". Also, there's a lot of score overlap between classes - you'll often see the top expert beating the lower masters, for instance. All in all, then, it might get more competitive for him, and he may bring home fewer plaques, but the match-bumped shooter isn't likely to get stuck in a class he simply has no business in.

My advice to anyone worried about being genuinely overclassed is to not be in a hurry to rush up the classifications in every division. If you're truly overclassified, or, say, you feel you're getting too old to compete at that level, and it's no longer fun, simply shoot a different division.

Tom

[motosapiens]

My advice to anyone worried about being genuinely overclassed is to not be in a hurry to rush up the classifications in every division. If you're truly overclassified, or, say, you feel you're getting too old to compete at that level, and it's no longer fun, simply shoot a different division.

Tom

Good advice tom. I'd go even further and say if you're truly overclassified, stop paying attention to artificial classes and just look at the overall results. Try and increase your percentage of the winners score, and try to move up in the overall. If you go from 20th to 10th, that's progress. Doesn't matter if you get a self-esteem plaque for beating the other average shooters or not. Just focus on improving your own skills, not looking for a small enough pond that you can 'win'.

[Racinready300ex]

Like all things shooting (that are not defense related) it's a game. That being said, I don't know if I've ever tried to score lower in a game on purpose. However, I would hate to have an amazing one day run, get stuck with people that are way better than I am and not even be able to compete (no fun). So do you best, and understand what that means. If you are worried about it, shoot a couple matches first and then decide if by classifying in a higher group will make you less competitive and you won't even enjoy participating then make your decision.

I don't think anyone can tell someone you should sand bag, that's just plain dumb. But rather, make them aware of what it means if they just barely break into another classification. Maybe it's time to shoot a different division???

What you just said is don't sandbag, just make sure you're at the top of a lower division instead of the bottom of a higher division. That is sandbaggin.

I know a few guys that switched division after making expert. Some it's to make expert in all divisions. Some, it's to avoid the expert class which is also sandbagging.

Personally I'd rather be the bottom master then the top expert. Gives me something to work toward.

[BillinTR]

More than one person has said that if you think you are over classified then shoot a different division. I thought that when you entered a shoot in a division you have not classified in then you compete at the classification that you received in the division in which you are classified. So what did that accomplish? And if you shoot the classifier in CDP the classification you earn is applied to all three semi-auto divisions. If you classify in SSP then it is applied to ESP as well. I must not understand everything about the classifications.

Personally I only REALLY care about my own shooting and working to improve it and having fun while doing so. If I went to a sanctioned match I would mainly be interested in learning how the better shooters are doing things.

But it would sure be nice to be able to do well with respect to others which are in the same classification (my current peers). Which would be hard, if not impossible, if I was over classified. And there seems to be virtually no going backwards if that happens. Well I'm not going to stress out over the issue at any rate. I just don't understand the whole concept of not trying to do as well as you can on a classifier.

[Masada]

Like all things shooting (that are not defense related) it's a game. That being said, I don't know if I've ever tried to score lower in a game on purpose. However, I would hate to have an amazing one day run, get stuck with people that are way better than I am and not even be able to compete (no fun). So do you best, and understand what that means. If you are worried about it, shoot a couple matches first and then decide if by classifying in a higher group will make you less competitive and you won't even enjoy participating then make your decision.

I don't think anyone can tell someone you should sand bag, that's just plain dumb. But rather, make them aware of what it means if they just barely break into another classification. Maybe it's time to shoot a different division???

What you just said is don't sandbag, just make sure you're at the top of a lower division instead of the bottom of a higher division. That is sandbaggin.

I know a few guys that switched division after making expert. Some it's to make expert in all divisions. Some, it's to avoid the expert class which is also sandbagging.

Personally I'd rather be the bottom master then the top expert. Gives me something to work toward.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm suggesting that people understand what it means to classify into a higher division if they aren't going to be competitive (this is a game after all, I don't know anyone that goes out with the intention of losing). A classifier is a set course that doesn't change, stage matches change all the time. Just because one can shoot a classifier really fast and accurate doesn't mean they will always do the same in a match where the variables change from stage to stage and match to match. Personally, I don't think the classifier is a great baseline to judge a shooter on.

My point being, if you find your self scoring at the same rate as an expert in matches, then you should try as hard as you can to get into the expert classification when you shoot the next classifier. However, if you barely scrape into expert and most of your match scores fall in the SS classification, then why would you want to lose all the time in the expert category? That would show that the shooters needs more time to develop the basic skills to make them competitive at the higher tier. Additionally, you're still going to learn from the experts while you shoot the stages.

That being said, even though you are competing against people in your classification, the match is scored so that you know your overall rank. So you are still competing (in a sense) against everyone.

In the end, the shooter needs to decide and make a game plan. Are you here to learn your weapon and become more proficient or are you here to compete and win with similarly skilled shooters?

[MrBorland]

More than one person has said that if you think you are over classified then shoot a different division. I thought that when you entered a shoot in a division you have not classified in then you compete at the classification that you received in the division in which you are classified. So what did that accomplish? And if you shoot the classifier in CDP the classification you earn is applied to all three semi-auto divisions. If you classify in SSP then it is applied to ESP as well. I must not understand everything about the classifications.

.

.

.

But it would sure be nice to be able to do well with respect to others which are in the same classification (my current peers). Which would be hard, if not impossible, if I was over classified...

My suggestion above was based on the assumption that one is classified in their alternate division, just not as high. An SSP Master/SSR Expert, for example will shoot the respective division at their respective classification.

Tom