Military Shooter?

[dmd6x]

Now I have one. If you are already at Kirtland in the PJ pipeline how are you an E3.

smh.

What are you fishing for? He already stated he had a 4-yr degree. That makes him an E-3 once he graduates BMT. In his case it is 28 months TIS for E-4.

I'm not sure what Rammer is fishing for either. But yes, I'm at Kirtland and an E3. In fact, all NPS students are E3 until they graduate, regardless of how long they're in the pipeline. You don't get your 3 level until you graduate, and you can't make E4 until you have your 3 level.

[dmd6x]

I'm just a young kid, trying to find a way into the sport. I'm not trying to "get out of my job", or slack on my responsibilities. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm trying to use my free time to have some fun, and better myself, become better trained and a more valuable member to my team and the Air Force. I found the forum, and thought it'd be a good place to reach out and find means of support to do something that would benefit my career and is fun. We can debate tactics or antics all you'd like, but you're right...despite having a degree in Mechanical Engineering and deciding to enlist to serve our country, I'm just an almost-entirely-worthless E-3 ditch digger... a pawn. I KNOW you have more experience than me, you probably have a lot more money than me, I'd bet you're a better shooter than me, and you've certainly been on this forum a lot longer than me. So I'm not sure what "the new guy did" to warrant the verbal beating, but in most other sports / activities I've participated in, people are pretty welcoming to new comers, particularly when there's a common thread between individuals such as the military.

The whole military issue aside, it seems to me you're not very interested in growing the sport, or in assisting those with less means or ability than yourself. I 100% agree that your local 3gun match is not exactly Afghanistan. But I do think some of the skills transfer over, and I don't think there is anything wrong with using USPSA, 3gun, or any other competitive shooting sport, as a means to improve certain elements of your gun handling and marksmanship under some sort of external stressor. It may not be a fox hole, but it's better than nothing.

When I deploy, I'll have an M4 and an M9. You're right, I won't have a shotgun slung over my back, or waiting for me in a barrel 10 yards forward of where my helo touches down. My career field is Pararescue. I know what miserable training is. I know that we often operate in 2 man teams, and may not have the luxury of a whole team to lay down cover fire on a mag change. I know that my teammates, and the lives I'm trying to save, might depend on my marksmanship and gun handling. I know that if I can engage moving targets while shooting on the move at a local shooting competition, I'll at least (to some degree) have a better chance of saving my teammates life in a real CQB mission.

So I apologize if I've offended you, or upset you, or disappointed you. The way I see it, there's ditch diggers and military pawns that just go about their life, ho-hum, no extra nothing. And then there's the ditch diggers and military pawns that have an "if there's a will there's a way" attitude, that go above and beyond, that take advantage of resources and opportunities afforded them, that aren't satisfied with the bare minimum, and that constantly try to improve in any way they can. I'm just trying to be more like the later than the former. You can disagree with me, but at the end of the day, I'll be the one behind the sights with a dying Joe or Marine at my feet, and I don't want to miss, much less wonder if there was anything I could have done to be better prepared for that moment.

Nobody is trying to discourage you just saying the military isn't gonna foot the bill which was your question.

AGREED. Shoot all you want. Become a GM if you have the time and talent. Just don't expect me or anybody else to pay for it. If you can't afford it now then scale back your involvement. I was an E3 once upon a time and I know how much we got paid. That's why it took me 20+ years to get to where I can get out there and enjoy shooting. Sure I make a little more money now, but I still have to work hard to support my hobby. You think it's bad now, wait until you are married 10 years and have three kids and are trying to make it on E6 pay. I was foolish enough to try Trap shooting at that stage of my life and career and guess what? I had to give up on that dream. I even got a weekend gig at the Rod and gun club running the trap and skeet ranges so I could get a discount on the birds and still couldn't afford it.

So, in summation, thank you for serving, best of luck with your career, and good luck with your shooting.

I didn't ask whether or not it was ethical for military or military support organizations to support me in one form or another. I was merely asking for help, not whether or not I'm entitled to it. But thank you for taking the opportunity to bash and share your $0.02. You made your opinions very clear.

[RammerJammer]

Now I have one. If you are already at Kirtland in the PJ pipeline how are you an E3.

smh.

What are you fishing for? He already stated he had a 4-yr degree. That makes him an E-3 once he graduates BMT. In his case it is 28 months TIS for E-4.

Not sure what BMT is but before you get to kirtland in the pipeline you have a couple years of schools that aren't scheduled back to back to back.

[dmd6x]

BMT is Basic Military Training. The normal progression for active duty guys is that after BMT, you go to Indoc at Lackland (Medina), then to Dive School in FL. Upon graduating dive school, you PCS to Kirtland. You then attend SERE, Airborne, Freefall, Paramedic, and the Apprentice Course in any order as long as Airborne is before Freefall, and apprentice course is always last. They try to schedule the courses as closely as possible, ususally within a few weeks of each other, sometimes back to back, and at most 2-3 months apart. And as I mentioned before, all NPS (non-prior service) students are E3 from the time they reach Kirtland until they graduate, regardless of how long it takes.

[RammerJammer]

BMT is Basic Military Training. The normal progression for active duty guys is that after BMT, you go to Indoc at Lackland (Medina), then to Dive School in FL. Upon graduating dive school, you PCS to Kirtland. You then attend SERE, Airborne, Freefall, Paramedic, and the Apprentice Course in any order as long as Airborne is before Freefall, and apprentice course is always last. They try to schedule the courses as closely as possible, ususally within a few weeks of each other, sometimes back to back, and at most 2-3 months apart. And as I mentioned before, all NPS (non-prior service) students are E3 from the time they reach Kirtland until they graduate, regardless of how long it takes.

Thats brutal. Most services will promote you while still in pipeline. You are still treated like scum until you are operational but at least you get to make some money.

[whitedog]

When I was in I got free ammo and was able to shoot one hell of a lot.

Once was panama.

Twice was the sandbox.

Other than that I knew of no program, other than AMU, that its handled for you.

[dzhitshard]

I disagree that the AMU is strictly a recruiting tool. Those guys do their time in combat zones just like everybody else. They help with training and teaching troops to shoot better so they survive. Ask Daniel if all he does is practice and compete or Robby if that is all he did with the AMU.

Bwahahaahahahaha, ... Bwhahahaahahaanahahahaahhhaaaaa, wait a minute, I'm crying here trying to catch my breath over that laugh fest. That's some funny sh!t there.

Jax, you should petition the POTUS to be his new minister of disinformation.

A "weeks" long MTT rotation is not deployment "like everyone else" unless you're lumping them in with secretary of state.

To the OP, I shot competitive matches on permissive TDY for a good bit back in the late 90's as a lower enlisted schmuck. Put face time in at local events and meet some of the other SMs that are riding that hog. If you show any tallent and act personable and professional someone would almost definately take you under their wing or help you out with the process.

FWIW, I healed through a lot of my wounds (one of the lesser just happened to be a T compression fracture) and spent a good bit of convalescent leave at one shooting school or another. Follow your profiles and don't risk aggregating your injuries. First it's your ass and career path on the line. Worse, it is your body and you're going to be stuck in what's left of it for the rest of your life.

[remoandiris]

If I remember, I'll ask Shane, Max and KC when I see him tomorrow. May give some perspective on the different timeframes as well. Could be some AMU members deploy and others don't. When I say deploy, I mean to Iraq, Afghanistan, Horn of Africa, etc. Going to Europe is NOT a deployment.

[dzhitshard]

If I remember, I'll ask Shane, Max and KC when I see him tomorrow. May give some perspective on the different timeframes as well. Could be some AMU members deploy and others don't. When I say deploy, I mean to Iraq, Afghanistan, Horn of Africa, etc. Going to Europe is NOT a deployment.

If you do ask, I'd recommend you be gentle in HOW you ask it. Feelings could get ruffled

[Smitty79]

I was a submariner and I was responsible for security force training of the people on my ship. I learned more about weapon handling and shooting in my club's one day action range class than I ever did in the military. The military should support more and better shooting skill development, and some kind of practical shooting training should be part of it. Shooting on the clock isn't getting shot at, but it's higher stress than a "square range".

The guys that shoot 3 gun, USPSA, and IDPA, with some added training, should be the guys training the rest of their shipmates in how to shoot. There was an article a month or 2 ago in 3 Gun Nation discussing this. It made a lot of sense.

[remoandiris]

If I remember, I'll ask Shane, Max and KC when I see him tomorrow. May give some perspective on the different timeframes as well. Could be some AMU members deploy and others don't. When I say deploy, I mean to Iraq, Afghanistan, Horn of Africa, etc. Going to Europe is NOT a deployment.

If you do ask, I'd recommend you be gentle in HOW you ask it. Feelings could get ruffled

I asked KC if AMU members deployed to Iraq or Afghan. He said yes, AMU member had deployed to Afghan to train Afghan Nat'l Police. They did it for a few years but are winding down. Obviously not every AMU member would go. Just like anything else in the military, if you were needed, you went.

[dzhitshard]

They "deploy" to hostile fire areas like MAJ Glen Miller did in WWII: Whistle stop tours. In and out before the stomach bugs even hit them.

While assigned as a member of AMU no member deploys as an individual augmentee or as a unit to perform combat operations. A few will see the interior of one mega FOB or another and act as an MTT for a short period of time. If they see a foreign national commando, soldier etc in person you can guarantee that said FN has been vetted better than a canidate for US political office and that there is another group of US Service members baby sitting the whole show. Prove this untrue and I will eat this IPad.

Each member of that unit is a talented shooter and all who I've ran into seem to be capable to well skilled trainers but saying that they "deploy like everyone else" is a slap in the face to every other service member who actually deploys in support of combat operations for more than a couple weeks at a time. Their job while assigned to that unit is primarily to serve as a recruiting tool and provide limited training functions. I don't begrudge that job but I do hold issue with people alluding to doing things they don't or others just passing out of context comments one of their shooting idols made.

From the outside looking in, there are a lot of AMU members who've deployed with their prior units and many who serve their time in AMU then leave to other units that make actual deployments. Don't confuse them with those who report to AMU as their first duty unit, and punch out for greener pastures after their first hitch.

Edited July 20, 2013 by dzhitshard

[remoandiris]

I've deployed (Balad, Iraq when it was still a high threat area) and do NOT see their deployment to Afghan to train ANP as a slap in the face. Some service members are in jobs with high mobility requirements. Others don't move much. Each made their own choices.

[ClutchUSMC]

I was medivaced to Balad. Swimming pools, baskin Robbins, etc. It was about the most relaxed, least dangerous place I saw in Iraq circa 2005. People went around the base without weapons, which was sop everywhere else I've ever been inside a combat zone.

Most of the infantrymen I know would laugh in your face for thinking a deployment in anything other than a line company counted.

I don't care what the AMU does and I'm happy we have them. It seems like we haw a few grumpy guys that a butt hurt that someone got a few more perks than they did from being in the military. Would you rather the Government wasted you're money on a bridge to nowhere, Obama phones, welfare for drug dealers, or food stamps for their customers? Lets be real giving an active duty service member, even a pog, some more range time isn't a bad thing.

[whitedog]

It is correct that when current members of the amu deploy it is not like a 11B. Or a lowly medic as myself. Just as when a alpha team, or seals, or supply shows up with chow. We were,or are, just cogs in the machine. Each with a purpose others may not see or agree with.

If you took the same oath as me...I don't care what you did...still brothers in arms.

[remoandiris]

I was medivaced to Balad. Swimming pools, baskin Robbins, etc. It was about the most relaxed, least dangerous place I saw in Iraq circa 2005. People went around the base without weapons, which was sop everywhere else I've ever been inside a combat zone.

Most of the infantrymen I know would laugh in your face for thinking a deployment in anything other than a line company counted.

I don't care what the AMU does and I'm happy we have them. It seems like we haw a few grumpy guys that a butt hurt that someone got a few more perks than they did from being in the military. Would you rather the Government wasted you're money on a bridge to nowhere, Obama phones, welfare for drug dealers, or food stamps for their customers? Lets be real giving an active duty service member, even a pog, some more range time isn't a bad thing.

Only Baskin Robbins I saw was ice cream in the DFAC and I never did find the swimming pool you mentioned. I remember a lot of sirens going off on numerous occasions and a lot of teams going out to check for UXOs. Guess I am just fortunate to have joined the USAF instead of the USA or USMC.

[RammerJammer]

I was medivaced to Balad. Swimming pools, baskin Robbins, etc. It was about the most relaxed, least dangerous place I saw in Iraq circa 2005. People went around the base without weapons, which was sop everywhere else I've ever been inside a combat zone.

Most of the infantrymen I know would laugh in your face for thinking a deployment in anything other than a line company counted.

I don't care what the AMU does and I'm happy we have them. It seems like we haw a few grumpy guys that a butt hurt that someone got a few more perks than they did from being in the military. Would you rather the Government wasted you're money on a bridge to nowhere, Obama phones, welfare for drug dealers, or food stamps for their customers? Lets be real giving an active duty service member, even a pog, some more range time isn't a bad thing.

Only Baskin Robbins I saw was ice cream in the DFAC and I never did find the swimming pool you mentioned. I remember a lot of sirens going off on numerous occasions and a lot of teams going out to check for UXOs. Guess I am just fortunate to have joined the USAF instead of the USA or USMC.

Its not fortune... it was wisdom.

I've lived under bridges, on roofs, in a morgue for awhile which was much nicer than it sounds.

Edited July 21, 2013 by RammerJammer

[gino_aki]

Well, from the other side of the taxpayer fence, I'd be more than happy to check off a box on my tax forms that said something like "Would you like $5.00 (or better yet a write-in amount) to be directed to the Budget for Auxiliary Military Marksmanship training? This will not increase your tax nor lower your refund." Heck, I'd even pay into it if it did increase my taxes. I'd even pay for deer hunts for service members if they could show it would improve their recon and land navigation skills. That would sure beat the hell out of paying for some of the more outrageous boondoggles that the defense budget gets hit up for. The 40 billion spent on bases and incinerators in Afghanistan that won't ever be used comes to mind as a recent example.

I was also a member of my state's Army NG rifle team back in the 80's and we not only got free ammo but a trip to compete at a Western States NG rifle match in California, can't remember whether it was at Ord or Camp Roberts. Might have been state money, but still was a federal facility and we were on state tdy as I recall.

There was also a Captain from the 25th Infantry Division who used to shoot with MPPL in Honolulu and he knew of support money he could've gotten if he could just have gotten enough other soldiers interested enough to form a team. He was kind of bewildered that he couldn't get any of his lieutenants or sergeants interested, but this WAS back in the 80's/90's and practical shooting wasn't as high profile as it is now. That kind of support may not be available now, though.

I would also surmise that it would be very much up to local commanders: for a couple years MPPL had use of the Puuloa rifle ranges (USMC) to hold their USPSA matches back in the time frame mentioned above because the commander thought it would be a good idea for military and civilian shooters to interact. The above mentioned Captain I only remember his first name was Max) may have had a hand in helping MPPL to gain access.

[wes777]

Support you can expect: 4 day passes from your Troop/Company Co.

AMU soldiers deploy for 30-90 days to train Soldiers and police/military. If they are there over 30 days, they get a patch.

If you want financial support, work for it, don't look for a handout. There are ways to save money on parts and ammo, do what you can. #1 way to save money as a e-3, eat at the DFAC.