Split times with Glocks

[Flexmoney]

Wanted to add...

Nothing wrong with adding strength. I happen to have a CofC Trainer sitting here. I haven't used it in a while, but just popped off 15 reps with each hand...and likely could have gone on for plenty more. Yet, that doesn't translate to the range unless I apply it properly with good technique and a clear mental goal.

[Flexmoney]

... and it's always that 15/20 yard plate... Ironically it doesn't show it's ugliness on paper... usually. Thanks again!

Hmmm, I just have to mention this. It might apply, maybe not....

I see shooters having issues on steel like you mentioned (and often not on paper). Very often it is what I call the "prairie dog". Since steel gives us feedback, and we get the best feedback with our eyes, we often want to SEE if we hit the steel target. So, we shoot and look. When we go to look, we drop the gun down a bit to see over it.

Being fast like we are and wanting that feedback, we end up looking at about the same time we are shooting. Which means we are dropping the gun down a little and picking our head up a little. (Like a prairie dog popping his head up.) The result is low shots on steel.

Basically, it can be a follow through issue. The fix there is more visual desire to SEE the front sight lift out of the notch. If you see that, you will know where the bullet is going to land and won't need to look at the target.

[lugnut]

If I am reading you right... If you don't start out firm (with the strong hand), you end up milking the grip and pulling the gun low? Sounds like the strong hand is doing the work there too.

Think of this... What if your gun was in a vice/Ransom Rest, and all you had to do was to stick your trigger finger in there and work the trigger manually? The gun would stay put, right? Heck, you could whack the trigger terribly and the gun would still stay on target.

Make your support hand the vice. Then, whatever you do with the strong hand matters less and less.

Those last couple of sentences say a lot...

Do you grip as hard as possible with your support hand? Are you an advocate of "Captains of Crush" type exercises? I think I have been underestimating the amount of strength needed to grip with the support hand.

I'm not really an advocate of the CofC as being the answer. The answer, for me, came with technique.

When I started this sport, I was probably about as physically strong as most anybody you will see anywhere. Yet, neither size nor hand strength helped me run the Glock.

- I had a breakthrough once I figured out to get the meaty part of my support hand to bite onto the gun, and to REALLY cam that support hand forward. (When I say "meaty part", I am thinking of the "drumstick" part of the thumb/palm.)

- I also had to mentally decide to actual grip tighter with that support hand. (If you do a lot of dryfire, it is real easy to build a bad habit of NOT doing this)

I would do the balance the dime on the front sight trick while pulling the trigger. Working that by using the support hand to hold the gun still while letting the other hand be more free to work the trigger smoothly.

Later, once I got the support hand grip figured out, I could (and would) just mash on the trigger in regular dryfire. I mean I would still pull it straight back into the gun, but with less regard for "touch". With my support hand really keeping the gun steady, what I would see would be the front sight sort of quaking a bit in the notch. It might shimmy about, but it would stay aligned and centered. It sometimes became a game to see how hard I could mash the trigger while still keeping the front sight properly in the notch through my support hand grip.

Further, if you can really define a clear goal...a clear mental picture of what you desire to see...you can compare what you are seeing with the clearly defined goal. Do that while shooting the Burkett timing drills and the support hand grip required should reveal itself.

This post is worth some money! I'll buy you a beer if I get a chance to meet you. Seriously. I've been shooting for 6 years, done pretty well for myself but really think this is where I can get the consistency I need. Listen to this stuff folks... it's big. Thanks.

On the prairie dog thing- I certainly won't rule it out.... but if I'm honest with myself I think it's the damn plates that I tense up my shooting hand with. I tend to string vertically in general... on paper it could result in a high or low A so I don't get killed like I do on 8" plates.

I'm gonna do what I can to get my drumstick working for me... I think this is a big thing for me.

As far as getting OT... it doesn't matter how fast your splits are if your shots go low or over the shoulder because the grip isn't right.

[Nimitz]

Flex, you are 100% correct about the criticality of getting the meat of the weak hand on the gun. I'm currently working on adjusting my arm positions to make this happen. For me it appears that I need to not raise my weak hand elbow too much because I can feel the palm of my hand coming off the gun when I do and also keep my elbows bent to act as a shock absorber for recoil. What I'm not aware of is my weak hand wrist position so I'll be dragging my video camera to the range tomorrow to get some close ups of this to see if I need to fix this as well ...

[Ed F]

So Flex, when I work on gripping more with the weak hand I get a lot of tension in that arm all the way up into the shoulder. I am assuming that I should try and relax from the elbow on upward?

Ed

[Nimitz]

during today's training session I achieved a new personal best on a BD ... 2.27 secs with a 1.01 draw and splits of .21/.18/.21/.22 & .44 ...

trigger freeze on the last shot cost me a potential sub 2 sec run ... the training continues ...

[rvb]

I would do the balance the dime on the front sight trick while pulling the trigger. Working that by using the support hand to hold the gun still while letting the other hand be more free to work the trigger smoothly.

Later, once I got the support hand grip figured out, I could (and would) just mash on the trigger in regular dryfire. I mean I would still pull it straight back into the gun, but with less regard for "touch". With my support hand really keeping the gun steady, what I would see would be the front sight sort of quaking a bit in the notch. It might shimmy about, but it would stay aligned and centered. It sometimes became a game to see how hard I could mash the trigger while still keeping the front sight properly in the notch through my support hand grip.

Flex,

Thanks for this, I think you may have helped me with a related problem. I discuss it in detail in my range diary (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59073&p=1987999)

I'm relatively new to glock shooting. Made master in prod w/ a beretta 92 and in open w/ a 2011 (ie mostly single action triggers, except out of the holster w/ the beretta). With the glock, I have NO trouble w/ fast splits on close targets, bill drills, etc (.12s are pretty common). Where I'm struggling is in the farther/tighter targets. I've had this feeling of over-aiming lately, as in the sights are on the target and I want the shot to break, but I'm taking forever. I thought it was lack of confidence in my sight picture, but in dryfire I figured out it's really the time it takes to pull through that longer "double action" glock trigger.... I'm waiting on my trigger finger.

So, two questions....

1) What split times should I be striving to achieve on say a 25yd open target?

2) Would you say that learning to work the trigger faster like you describe above and accepting some of the quaking and shimmying is the right answer to this issue? Follow-on: since that seems like it would lead to in-accuracy in your shot calling, are you willing to accept a C hit if you called an A, etc (seems if it could save 3-4 tenths it would be worth it)? Up close that shimmying isn't really going to affect the call...

I feel like my splits at distance have doubled since switching to the glock........

Trigger is stock G34 except for a lighter striker spring.

Thanks!

-rvb

Edited August 20, 2013 by rvb

[mgrs]

There is lots of technique involves as well. With my glock, I like grip tape where the meaty "chicken leg" of my support thumb/hand contacts the frame. That gives me some bite on the gun. then, I like to roll that support hand to wrist lock, such that...if I opened my support hand fingers and pointed them, they would be pointed towward the ground at about a 45 egree angle. Elbow angles and various pressures...I play with them until I get the gun tracking like I desire.

Also...Burkett timing drills tend to help. A key is to really see what is going on.

Good post. I tried this method in adjusting grip on my G34. I find that my sights are no longer lifting much at all. The Burkett drill with differential grip pressure to find a medium between sights lifting too much and starting to shift right or left due to too much overall tension as opposed to pure grip pressure.

I think it paid off, as I dropped my bill drill splits from .2 or so to .13-.15 on my first classifier (Can You Count?) last weekend after a few days of practice.

[Flexmoney]

Awesome.

Watching the sights, while experimenting, and SEEING what is actually happening = good stuff.