Split times with Glocks

[Nimitz]

Moto: believe it or not I must disagree with you ...

The reason is that over the last 3 weeks I've spent a lot of time discussing my lack of progress given all the training I do with Ben & Beltjones. They convinced me that I needed to work on my fundamental shooting skills as they relate to practical shooting & not necessarily things like movement.

These fundamentals are "simply" the ability to shoot accurately at speed, which includes reasonably fast splits (mine were in the .5/.6 range on close open targets) & transitions, draws & reloads. So, I have basically started over and am currently focused on standing & shooting accurately at speed and then will switch to moving & shooting accurately at speed.

As Ben likes to say, until you can stand & shoot accurately at speed you'll never be able to move & shoot accurately at speed. TGO has said that being accurate is meaningless if you can't do it fast.

While it's true I could chase some low hanging fruit in the movement arena and see my stage times improve I'm more interested in long-term permanent gains which means I need to get the fundamentals nailed. So I'm working on the basics: being able to shoot fast & accurate (transitions, splits, draws, reloads).

My club's yearly classifier match is next week so I'll get a great benchmark of my current stand & shoot skills ...

[Flexmoney]

yeah, when I focus on squeezing with the fingers of my weak hand everything is good. I can put 2 shots into a quarter size area on a 10 yd target with splits of around .3 but when I don't I get A/C hits with the 2nd shot being a C center-left ...

I need to keep remembering that "more weak hand grip" means squeezing harder, not pushing harder with the palm of my weak hand which is what I thought it meant for a long time ...

There is lots of technique involves as well. With my glock, I like grip tape where the meaty "chicken leg" of my support thumb/hand contacts the frame. That gives me some bite on the gun. then, I like to roll that support hand to wrist lock, such that...if I opened my support hand fingers and pointed them, they would be pointed towward the ground at about a 45 egree angle. Elbow angles and various pressures...I play with them until I get the gun tracking like I desire.

Also...Burkett timing drills tend to help. A key is to really see what is going on.

[motosapiens]

Moto: believe it or not I must disagree with you ...

The reason is that over the last 3 weeks I've spent a lot of time discussing my lack of progress given all the training I do with Ben & Beltjones. They convinced me that I needed to work on my fundamental shooting skills as they relate to practical shooting & not necessarily things like movement.

These fundamentals are "simply" the ability to shoot accurately at speed, which includes reasonably fast splits (mine were in the .5/.6 range on close open targets) & transitions, draws & reloads. So, I have basically started over and am currently focused on standing & shooting accurately at speed and then will switch to moving & shooting accurately at speed.

As Ben likes to say, until you can stand & shoot accurately at speed you'll never be able to move & shoot accurately at speed. TGO has said that being accurate is meaningless if you can't do it fast.

While it's true I could chase some low hanging fruit in the movement arena and see my stage times improve I'm more interested in long-term permanent gains which means I need to get the fundamentals nailed. So I'm working on the basics: being able to shoot fast & accurate (transitions, splits, draws, reloads).

My club's yearly classifier match is next week so I'll get a great benchmark of my current stand & shoot skills ...

Reasonable point. I agree that everyone needs to start with fundamental shooting skills, in particular grip and trigger control. I think if you have a solid grip and good trigger control, then sufficiently fast splits will come naturally, and it may not be helpful to focus too much on the split times.

[GmanCdp]

yeah, but low splits sounds cool...lol.. fundamental shooting skills is where it's at.. Nimitz,it sounds like you have a good plan, just stick with it..

[Nimitz]

They certainly do ... Particularly when all those 20 something year old shooting groupies are hanging around my matches ....

I've been on a steep learning curve the last few weeks with lots of discoveries related to shooting at speed, getting my splits to something reasonable, .25 - .30 so now I can concentrate on other things.

Flex: focusing on angling my weak hand wrist down at a 45 is something that is not yet a subconscious skill and I need to work on it ... Seeklander calls it locking your wrist tendons .... I got my G34 stippled by Accurate Iron early on since my hands sweat a lot here in Fl, that and Progrip and at least the gun doesn't move around in my hand, whatever grip I'm using ...

Also, I'm not familiar with the Burkett timing drills ... I'll have to go look around for them ...

[DonovanM]

I was hoping for non anecdotal data ... if someone wants to shoot a Bill Drill & show the camera their timer I won't bring this up again ...

I also have a trigger with an over travel set screw set at the min distance so the safeties still work.

I'll have to try it with my regular shot timer as I don't own a smart phone ...

My main reason for asking was to find out if there is still more to be done here or if I could check this one off and move on to other areas that need my attention ...

This is the best I can do for you. Second target in this vid.

There are times when I try to shave my splits down. It's not that important, but I do anyway, and I think the strong push-back under reset the stock striker spring provides is VERY beneficial for shooting fast splits.

I did some stoning/polishing on my trigger and put in a Ghost Rocket connector... that's it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3NtWic9ac

[leas327]

Not my best work, but the splits are under .2.

I am a mid pack B. I hadn't touched this gun in three weeks when I shot this.

Gun is a 35 with springs, polish, and a Jager striker . Ammo went 137pf at the Ohio match.

[MadMadWorld]

I have found the Bill Drills help the most with not only split times but everything else that is going on with the gun, recoil, timing and helping to watch the sights lift.

I had two breakthrough moments while shooting with both Steve Anderson and Flex. The first, mainly from Anderson, was you have to give your self permission to shoot that fast. Basically, prove to your self that you can pull the trigger that fast. The second, from both, is splits alone will not win you a match. I have watched some decent shooters absolutely kill on their splits (sub .15 splits on 4-6 shot strings) but they are all over the targets and having to take make ups. For what that is worth, taking the .2 splits with A hits on the target is a better service to your score, IMO.

With all that said, an I will get video if I remember this weekend at the range, I can get consistent splits between .16 and .18 on Bill Drills with a stock Glock 22 and major PF loads. In comparison, the lowest I have consistently run on a single stack with a decent trigger job is .14-.15 on Bill Drills.

[Nimitz]

I'm certainly not spending and range time trying to lower my splits under .2. I was just curious to know what was possible. Since my OP I'v managed .20 & .21 splits so I believe even I will be under .2 eventually as I continue to progress ...

[38supPat]

I posted a video here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178624#entry1973872

Most of the splits when I was doing multiples were under .20 with some down to .15. Gun is a stock Glock 17 with just the sights and mag button changed, all internals are as it came out if the box. No new parts, no polishing, all factory.

[cargento]

Just my 2 cents: I used to shoot .25s splits with production G34. I upgraded to Fulcrum trigger and with post-travel to the minimum I get to shoot .18s As, 7yds.

[Flexmoney]

Just my 2 cents: I used to shoot .25s splits with production G34. I upgraded to Fulcrum trigger and with post-travel to the minimum I get to shoot .18s As, 7yds.

You can do better than that, by working on how you grip the gun. Tension (from trying to go fast...and hold onto the gun) slows down the trigger finger. Trigger freeze also comes from that same tension.

Shooting a mostly stock Glock, I had to learn to grip the gun "more" with my support hand...letting it do the actual work. That freed up the tension in my trigger hand/finger.

[lugnut]

Just my 2 cents: I used to shoot .25s splits with production G34. I upgraded to Fulcrum trigger and with post-travel to the minimum I get to shoot .18s As, 7yds.

You can do better than that, by working on how you grip the gun. Tension (from trying to go fast...and hold onto the gun) slows down the trigger finger. Trigger freeze also comes from that same tension.

Shooting a mostly stock Glock, I had to learn to grip the gun "more" with my support hand...letting it do the actual work. That freed up the tension in my trigger hand/finger.

Flex- I have no issue with split times but related to this is the grip issue. If I don't grip firm with my strong hand I sometimes inadvertently squeeze the grip with my other strong hand fingers when I'm pulling the trigger. This results in low shots... this is confirmed in dry fire. Any way you have found to help eliminate this?

[Flexmoney]

Flex- I have no issue with split times but related to this is the grip issue. If I don't grip firm with my strong hand I sometimes inadvertently squeeze the grip with my other strong hand fingers when I'm pulling the trigger. This results in low shots... this is confirmed in dry fire. Any way you have found to help eliminate this?

If I am reading you right... If you don't start out firm (with the strong hand), you end up milking the grip and pulling the gun low? Sounds like the strong hand is doing the work there too.

Think of this... What if your gun was in a vice/Ransom Rest, and all you had to do was to stick your trigger finger in there and work the trigger manually? The gun would stay put, right? Heck, you could whack the trigger terribly and the gun would still stay on target.

Make your support hand the vice. Then, whatever you do with the strong hand matters less and less.

[lugnut]

Flex- I have no issue with split times but related to this is the grip issue. If I don't grip firm with my strong hand I sometimes inadvertently squeeze the grip with my other strong hand fingers when I'm pulling the trigger. This results in low shots... this is confirmed in dry fire. Any way you have found to help eliminate this?

If I am reading you right... If you don't start out firm (with the strong hand), you end up milking the grip and pulling the gun low? Sounds like the strong hand is doing the work there too.

Think of this... What if your gun was in a vice/Ransom Rest, and all you had to do was to stick your trigger finger in there and work the trigger manually? The gun would stay put, right? Heck, you could whack the trigger terribly and the gun would still stay on target.

Make your support hand the vice. Then, whatever you do with the strong hand matters less and less.

Yes, I think it's basically milking the grip with my strong hand while shooting. I agree, I need to work my weak hand grip better, I'm working on that. And yes, I'm trying to determine if my strong hand grip needs to be firmer or keep it the same and try to isolate the darn trigger finger from the rest of my strong hand fingers that are the culprit. Hoser targets aren't really as much of an issue but far steel is, as you can imagine.

Isolating the trigger finger is the challenge.

Edited August 1, 2013 by lugnut

[Flexmoney]

Yes, I think it's basically milking the grip with my strong hand while shooting. I agree, I need to work my weak hand grip better, I'm working on that. And yes, I'm trying to determine if my strong hand grip needs to be firmer or keep it the same and try to isolate the darn trigger finger from the rest of my strong hand fingers that are the culprit. Hoser targets aren't really as much of an issue but far steel is, as you can imagine.

Isolating the trigger finger is the challenge.

It isolates itself once you make your support hand do all the work. Do that, and you can quit thinking about the other hand all together.

(I'm only exaggerating a bit to make beat home the point)

[lugnut]

Yes, I think it's basically milking the grip with my strong hand while shooting. I agree, I need to work my weak hand grip better, I'm working on that. And yes, I'm trying to determine if my strong hand grip needs to be firmer or keep it the same and try to isolate the darn trigger finger from the rest of my strong hand fingers that are the culprit. Hoser targets aren't really as much of an issue but far steel is, as you can imagine.

Isolating the trigger finger is the challenge.

It isolates itself once you make your support hand do all the work. Do that, and you can quit thinking about the other hand all together.

(I'm only exaggerating a bit to make beat home the point)

Gotcha. Thanks a lot. Honestly... I thought I had beat this one already.... but after many years I've come to realize that indeed I'm still allowing my strong "hand" to pull the trigger on occasion... and it's always that 15/20 yard plate that I seem to tense up on. Ironically it doesn't show it's ugliness on paper... usually. Thanks again!

[RaylanGivens]

If I am reading you right... If you don't start out firm (with the strong hand), you end up milking the grip and pulling the gun low? Sounds like the strong hand is doing the work there too.

Think of this... What if your gun was in a vice/Ransom Rest, and all you had to do was to stick your trigger finger in there and work the trigger manually? The gun would stay put, right? Heck, you could whack the trigger terribly and the gun would still stay on target.

Make your support hand the vice. Then, whatever you do with the strong hand matters less and less.

Those last couple of sentences say a lot...

Do you grip as hard as possible with your support hand? Are you an advocate of "Captains of Crush" type exercises? I think I have been underestimating the amount of strength needed to grip with the support hand.

[lugnut]

CoC have to be used with care. I think I got mild tennis elbow from over doing it with them.... that and a lot of shooting.

Edited August 2, 2013 by lugnut

[Nimitz]

Since I've been using the CoCs the last 3 months I've noticed an amazing increase in grip strength. However,I strictly follow their advice: do one set to failure every other day with each hand plus 2 sets with their expand bands. Once you can do 10 reps easily you are ready to move up to the next one.

[Paul-the new guy]

Since I've been using the CoCs the last 3 months I've noticed an amazing increase in grip strength. However,I strictly follow their advice: do one set to failure every other day with each hand plus 2 sets with their expand bands. Once you can do 10 reps easily you are ready to move up to the next one.

what are you up to?

[Nimitz]

When I began I could not do more than 2 reps with my strong hand and 0 with my weak hand using the Trainer. Today's training session was 7 full reps and 2 partials with a #1 on my strong hand and 9 full closes and 1 partial with my weak hand with the trainer ...

[Andreas]

CoC have to be used with care. I think I got mild tennis elbow from over doing it with them.... that and a lot of shooting.

Yeah, I added CoC grippers to near-daily dry fire and bad things happened fairly quickly. Setting down my pistol for two weeks, ice, and massage got my elbow tendonitis down to a dull roar. I've started up light dry fire since then, and two more weeks has seen additional improvement. But I'm still some time from picking up the grippers. Careful with these things folks!

Edited August 6, 2013 by Andreas

[Nimitz]

I would strickly follow the company advice, only do 1 rep to failure every other day. It seems like you need to do more but you don't. Increasing strength is about low reps and high weight, or in this case resistance ...

Before I got the CoCs I was using those cheap things you find at the big sporting goods stores. I was doing 5 sets of 50 with each hand every other day and not seeing any gains.

[Flexmoney]

If I am reading you right... If you don't start out firm (with the strong hand), you end up milking the grip and pulling the gun low? Sounds like the strong hand is doing the work there too.

Think of this... What if your gun was in a vice/Ransom Rest, and all you had to do was to stick your trigger finger in there and work the trigger manually? The gun would stay put, right? Heck, you could whack the trigger terribly and the gun would still stay on target.

Make your support hand the vice. Then, whatever you do with the strong hand matters less and less.

Those last couple of sentences say a lot...

Do you grip as hard as possible with your support hand? Are you an advocate of "Captains of Crush" type exercises? I think I have been underestimating the amount of strength needed to grip with the support hand.

I'm not really an advocate of the CofC as being the answer. The answer, for me, came with technique.

When I started this sport, I was probably about as physically strong as most anybody you will see anywhere. Yet, neither size nor hand strength helped me run the Glock.

- I had a breakthrough once I figured out to get the meaty part of my support hand to bite onto the gun, and to REALLY cam that support hand forward. (When I say "meaty part", I am thinking of the "drumstick" part of the thumb/palm.)

- I also had to mentally decide to actual grip tighter with that support hand. (If you do a lot of dryfire, it is real easy to build a bad habit of NOT doing this)

I would do the balance the dime on the front sight trick while pulling the trigger. Working that by using the support hand to hold the gun still while letting the other hand be more free to work the trigger smoothly.

Later, once I got the support hand grip figured out, I could (and would) just mash on the trigger in regular dryfire. I mean I would still pull it straight back into the gun, but with less regard for "touch". With my support hand really keeping the gun steady, what I would see would be the front sight sort of quaking a bit in the notch. It might shimmy about, but it would stay aligned and centered. It sometimes became a game to see how hard I could mash the trigger while still keeping the front sight properly in the notch through my support hand grip.

Further, if you can really define a clear goal...a clear mental picture of what you desire to see...you can compare what you are seeing with the clearly defined goal. Do that while shooting the Burkett timing drills and the support hand grip required should reveal itself.