Approved for member review...

[GuildSF4]

Once again--how can it possibly hurt to give this a try on a provisional basis?

I agree, let's give it a shot.

[Flexmoney]

I don't have much time to give this thread justice right now, but...

It's NOT provisional!

Everybody keeps throwing that word around. This is not a test. This is not a trial. It is not an experiment. It is a fundamental change of the division. It will be permanent. It must last at least 2 years (per the USPSA bylaws) and any change after that would require starting the process over and getting the BOD to once again change the division.

[Chuck Anderson]

What Flex said. The rules that are coming out are for member review. They can still be changed at this point. Once they are voted in, they are fixed, not provisional. If we put it in place, it's gonna be there for at least two years, and probably however long the Division lasts. If we put it in and it doesn't work, then...

[mcb]

Why can't this change be done as a provision change like when Single Stack was introduced?

[Chuck Anderson]

Single Stack was a new Division, Revolver is not. Bylaws say we can't monkey with a Division more than once every two years.

[Buffalobolt]

I've contacted my AD expressing my opinion to allow 8 Minor to Revolver Division.

Current 627, Production Shooter...

[mcb]

Hmmm... So it sound like the 8-shot minor, if approved, is then at least a 2 year "experiment". I can see the reasoning but at the same time it would have been nice to try it for just one season/year. I still support it even if it has to be in place for two years before we can change back.

I presently don't own a 627 or similar 8-shot revolver. How do reload times differ between the 625's and the 627's? I watch a guy in my squad this past weekend at our club match shoot a 627 (production) and his reloads were painfully slow compared to me even with me shooting my 610 this match. I am curious how much of that was him being a less experienced shooter and how much of that was hardware? Does the 8-shot reload noticeably slow the Masters and Grand Masters down compared to their 6-shot guns?

[seanc]

Hmmm... So it sound like the 8-shot minor, if approved, is then at least a 2 year "experiment". I can see the reasoning but at the same time it would have been nice to try it for just one season/year. I still support it even if it has to be in place for two years before we can change back.

I presently don't own a 627 or similar 8-shot revolver. How do reload times differ between the 625's and the 627's? I watch a guy in my squad this past weekend at our club match shoot a 627 (production) and his reloads were painfully slow compared to me even with me shooting my 610 this match. I am curious how much of that was him being a less experienced shooter and how much of that was hardware? Does the 8-shot reload noticeably slow the Masters and Grand Masters down compared to their 6-shot guns?

It does not matter at all.

If you are fast reloading a moonclip gun, you are fast, it doesn't matter if they are 6 or 8 or long or short.

[alecmc]

Hmmm... So it sound like the 8-shot minor, if approved, is then at least a 2 year "experiment". I can see the reasoning but at the same time it would have been nice to try it for just one season/year. I still support it even if it has to be in place for two years before we can change back.

I presently don't own a 627 or similar 8-shot revolver. How do reload times differ between the 625's and the 627's? I watch a guy in my squad this past weekend at our club match shoot a 627 (production) and his reloads were painfully slow compared to me even with me shooting my 610 this match. I am curious how much of that was him being a less experienced shooter and how much of that was hardware? Does the 8-shot reload noticeably slow the Masters and Grand Masters down compared to their 6-shot guns?

It does not matter at all.

If you are fast reloading a moonclip gun, you are fast, it doesn't matter if they are 6 or 8 or long or short.

Agree.. 8 shot 38 spl vs 6 shot 45acp..... While i'd say that the 625 loads a touch faster, the 627 isnt far behind ( assuming you have high quality moon clips & a chamfer)

Edited June 26, 2013 by alecmc

[Flexmoney]

My two cents; As USPSA is asking for feedback I was wondering if anyone from BOD is contacting the other revolver sports organizations or reaching out to revolver shooters in other sports to get their input.

Nope. Unitl the Prez brought this up at the start of the meeting to add it to the agenda, it had only been mentioned once before, briefly. We then had a short round-table discussion on it, before the vote (to move forward with it by gathering member input).

If we are trying to grow participation in revolver, is the priority to grow it amongst existing members or bring new members into the sport from outside, if the latter then how is this proposal being distributed among non-members?

If implemented, I get the feeling that success will be measured by how it does at Nationals. As for getting the message out beyond USPSA...

[Flexmoney]

But I don't think it's productive to start offering the BOD all sorts of ideas. They have resolved to consider one issue only: 8-minor/6-major. Let's let them do that without distraction.

If you are going to ask for a red dot in 2yrs...just do it now.

[Bosshoss]

THANK YOU Flex and Chuck.

Flex made it clear in a response to one of my post earilier that the change would be for 2 years and if it didn't work then would have to go thru same process again to get it changed back if it doesn't damage the division beyond repair.

I have been asking for more info about the issue and it seems some don't care they just want the change.

I have said that I'm interested in TRYING the change but NOT until solutions to the problems that it creates are addressed.

Everyone is saying lets try this and if it doesn't work then it will just go away, well it won't go away if it doesn't work.

I can hear it now if this passes some will go and buy a 627 and shoot a few matches and find it is not what they thought and go back to whatever they were shooting before. In two years if the division has no growth and they want to go back to 6 shot only those people will throw a fit because they have a gun that isn't competitive anymore, even if they don't shoot it anymore.

IMO This if passed will bring a up tick of revolver mission count for a few months and then it will be business as usual as the fun wears off and the work to get better set in and a lot of shooter will return to the auto's.

Case in point Rob how is the Revolver turnout in Rio Salado now? Everyone was watching this club as they were playing with the 8 Minor and 6 Major thing this winter. I see no new posts or match anouncements about this in months. Back to business as usual? Have the revolver numbers went up there and stayed up?

[Flexmoney]

Everyone is e-mailing their Area directors and voicing their opinions on this but what is being proposed and how will it be implemented?

I know 8minor/6major but what about the classifiers that was discussed in another thread and how to handle that?

Nobody thought of that, until I brought it up later (with the Classification Committee report). And, I only thought of it because of the thread here. It's a vaild question. We have a number of classifiers that would be impacted.

How long will the trial be?

It wouldn't be a trial. It would be a permanent change to the division.

If attendance doesn't go up will it revert back to what it is now or another vote will be required?

The process would have to begin again. it would require another vote.

I want to see revolver class grow but I don't want to see it killed off by a rule that some think will make it easy(8 shot gun= 8 shot array what could go wrong with that ).

I love the game as is but would be willing to see what happens if it is done right.

The good news there is that we have actually been beating the idea around on here for years. While the BOD hasn't really looked at it much yet...we do have this time to get members to voice their thoughts to their Area Directors before a final vote happens.

I can't wait for everyone to run out and get a competive 627 and then find out about .38 short colt brass they will need to be competive and oh yea don't forget the $7.50 each moonclips that you will need to be competive. You will cry when one of those gets stepped on.

Just one? LOL

[D.Hayden]

Just to get the email address/name for your area directors:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-contact-us.php

[moverfive]

First and foremost - I want to thank the BOD for finally taking the appropriate actions in allowing member feedback before rules such as this proposal is voted on.

[bdpaz]

Case in point Rob how is the Revolver turnout in Rio Salado now? Everyone was watching this club as they were playing with the 8 Minor and 6 Major thing this winter. I see no new posts or match anouncements about this in months. Back to business as usual? Have the revolver numbers went up there and stayed up?

Not Rob, but summer heat and real life got in the way. People liked the Outlaw matches and have asked when we'll do another one but none of us are too excited by the thought of running an afternoon match and then tearing down when it is 110. The official revolver numbers at the regular matches haven't gone up because nothing has changed there. We do have a few more people shooting 8 shot revo in L10 in anticipation of the Big Change but until they can shoot as Revo nothing much will happen.

I want to see revolver class grow but I don't want to see it killed off by a rule that some think will make it easy(8 shot gun= 8 shot array what could go wrong with that ).

I love the game as is but would be willing to see what happens if it is done right.

No one I know thinks this will make it easy. Most of us at Rio have shot USPSA matches with both 6 and 8 shot guns and can say with conviction that even with an 8 shot gun you are absolutely still shooting a revolver!

[TGO]

THANK YOU Flex and Chuck.

Flex made it clear in a response to one of my post earilier that the change would be for 2 years and if it didn't work then would have to go thru same process again to get it changed back if it doesn't damage the division beyond repair.

I have been asking for more info about the issue and it seems some don't care they just want the change.

I have said that I'm interested in TRYING the change but NOT until solutions to the problems that it creates are addressed.

Everyone is saying lets try this and if it doesn't work then it will just go away, well it won't go away if it doesn't work.

I can hear it now if this passes some will go and buy a 627 and shoot a few matches and find it is not what they thought and go back to whatever they were shooting before. In two years if the division has no growth and they want to go back to 6 shot only those people will throw a fit because they have a gun that isn't competitive anymore, even if they don't shoot it anymore.

IMO This if passed will bring a up tick of revolver mission count for a few months and then it will be business as usual as the fun wears off and the work to get better set in and a lot of shooter will return to the auto's.

Case in point Rob how is the Revolver turnout in Rio Salado now? Everyone was watching this club as they were playing with the 8 Minor and 6 Major thing this winter. I see no new posts or match anouncements about this in months. Back to business as usual? Have the revolver numbers went up there and stayed up?

Follows is my response, sorry messed up the post:

As soon as we quit running the outlaw matches that allowed 8 minor, the activity went back to same as before. The crossover icore shooters that do still attend USPSA events shoot limited 10 with 8 shooters or shoot autos. Most have not returned. Club matches wuth 6 shooters isn't that much fun. Seems most would rather just shoot something that doesn't turn into a reloading contest instead.

We had seen big turnouts for the outlaw matches. Ask Brad what the attendance numbers were. They influx of crossover shooters were there to help with the experiment and seem to have no intention of purchasing 6 shooters, or shooting 6 rounds only out of their 8 shooters to participate in USPSA events. They just stay with ICORE. We saw only a few IDPA shooters attend, and nearly all shot 625's.

The real test of the outlaw matches was to see what the scoring would be comparing 6 major and 8 minor. If the COF is following uspsa directives, 8 minor was better. If the cof was designed to allow 6 shooters no more standing reload than the 8's there was very little difference for me. Except as noted before, I don't like the recoil of the 6 major. The ICORE guys like recoil less than I do......

And yes, anybody interested should thank the BOD for looking into this. They are trying to fix the division. So Thanks Ya'all!!!

The point of all this is to save revolver division. It needs major surgery to survive. It will with a stand alone Natinoal championship but for it to flourish and thrive, it needs to grow at the club level. It needs a transplant. An 8 round transplant... I'm just sayin"....

Edited June 26, 2013 by TGO

[gose]

And yes, anybody interested should thank the BOD for looking into this. They are trying to fix the division. So Thanks Ya'all!!!

The division isnt really broken. Its just that no one is really interested in it. Sure, this might bring a few icore guys over and delay the inevitable, but its not going to change that fundamental flaw.

No amount of band aid applied to a patient that got the head cut off is going to bring him back to life.

[dillon]

I am merely a B class shooter in revolver, but due to elbow damage, I quit shooting my 625 major and changed to Production Division. I am a life member of ICORE and would welcome the opportunity to compete in Revolver Division using my 8-shot 627. A stand-alone Revolver Nationals would allow for more 6-shot neutral stages than you are likely to see at a lower level match. But I am very much in favor of this change. Limitations to modifications in Production Division preclude using my 627 in this division. I am happy to shoot minor for this. I suspect this change, along with a stand-alone revolver nationals, will do much to increase participation in this division.

Edited June 26, 2013 by dillon

[Carmoney]

But I don't think it's productive to start offering the BOD all sorts of ideas. They have resolved to consider one issue only: 8-minor/6-major. Let's let them do that without distraction.

If you are going to ask for a red dot in 2yrs...just do it now.

I'm not asking for anything, Kyle. Phil Strader (with input from several key revolver players) brought the 8-minor concept to the board.

I'm at the point where I almost don't care what happens, as long as something is done before the division withers and dies completely. I don't see status quo as a real viable option.

[Pseudonym]

snipped a bunch...

I just don't see revolver class booming with just allowing in 8 shot guns in. But maybe your right and it will take off.

It is a game and some of us Are having fun with it as is even if you are not.

Seems to me that this has pretty much turned into a private act for those who particularly want to shoot 8 shot minor guns. If the only question before the BOD is "8 minor / 6 major" all the other ideas for improving revolver class are elimnated from consideration without any real discussion. Or am I missing some important step in communicating with the mother ship?

The poll on my original thread is now showing a response that favors adoption of 8-minor almost three to one--clearly, the quiet majority wants to give this a try.

Mike I understand how you could say the numbers show it as three to one in favor of allowing minor eight, but it was not asked as a straight up and down question. I would be interested to know if put to only a yes/no vote what the results would be.

[wheelie]

Good to hear some feedback from Chuck Anderson. I don't know Chuck but its nice to hear from someone in an official position about what is happening/might happen/being considered. My comment re: private act is mostly that as far as our discussion here on this board there seemed to be a short circuiting of discussion when suddenly it was announced that some version of what we were discussing was being considered. The by-laws limit the number of changes within a two year period and that kind of worried me. But this is the internet and I might be a dog as far as you know. ;>)

Going 8 shot is fine with me but I'll have to abstain from buying a new blaster to be sorta maybe competitive. I'm fully invested in .45 ACP like it or not, and fjust not gonna drops the funds to take up a new rig. Also, and FWIW, I could see liking a major 8 shot revolver - but that seems to be left out of the mix right now.

I think what bothers me is the complete gamer thing being applied to the most hardcore class. IMO. But I am a relic and have re-entered this game with a 30 year old mindset that does not always meld with how the game is run now.

Finally, I'm generally and almost always in favor of the simplest, barest rules that will get the job done.I like that about Revolver class as it is. Not very many rules - just requires a round thing that turns pretty much.

EDIT: I posted this before reading the third page of the thread so if it seems out of place - it is a bit.

Edited June 27, 2013 by wheelie

[wheelie]

What all my whining is about is this:

I think the rule change should be to "any revolver (no round limit) scored minor and major as otherwise done in the sport". That change allows in the highest numbers of fresh shooters and new guns.

If you're gonna change it, change it big and make it worthwhile. Open it up.

[No.343]

I would also like to thank the BOD for giving this so much time.<br /><br />Should changes to the division be implemented how will success be measured? Is the division in jeopardy of being eliminated if this change is not successful?

[cas]

It will bring over a handful of ICORE shooters. And it will make a handful of shooters think they can't compete with the guns they already own, and move on to other divisions. In the end we'll see a few new faces, but no more shooters.

Edited June 27, 2013 by cas