Approved for member review...

[COF]

Wish the Area Director for Illinois was on here so I could tell him I am in favor of this...

[ed_henry]

I would try revolver if I could shoot minor with 8 rounds. Really neat

Ed

[56hawk]

R.I.P my old 625

Naw, you're going to need it for matches where the stage design favors the 6-major option. This will likely include next year's USPSA Revolver Nationals.

I can see it now, we will have to bring both guns and ammo for each untill we get a look at the stages on the ground.

This is the main reason I'm against the change. On six shot friendly stages the 625 shooters have a huge advantage and on eight shot friendly stages the 627 shooters have a huge advantage. I would be one of the guys bringing both and waiting until the walk through before deciding which to shoot.

[dcloudy777]

Hey, all right!! They took one of the least expensive divisions to achieve equipment parity in and practically doubled the cost!! (Well, I suppose you could use the same belt rig...).

[redmist10]

Minor and two extra rounds? Sounds like a rule created by a weak-wristed, slab-sider to me...have fun with that. Let the equipment race begin (again)...

[Jaxshooter]

I sent an email to the Area 6 Director Linda Chico as did 6 of my friends askig that she vote in favor of 8 shot Minor.

[bikerburgess]

I can't see how a six shooter will be competative with a eight shot gun on the stages we commonly see. I think if the goal is to include the icore guys and guns into USPSA a better idea would be to tweek the production rules a little more, revolvers already have a holster and moon clip holder possition exeption but if you bobbed the hammer its illigal, just make any revolver (with iron sights) legal for production. I would bet that a 8 shot is more compoetative in production than a 6 shot would be against 8 shots in revolver.

Mike

[No.343]

I'm going to make this rule change easy. Change Appendix D6 from:

9 Maximum ammunition capacity: No, maximum of 6 rounds fired

before reload

To:

9 Maximum ammunition capacity: No

Leave everything else the same.

[Carmoney]

I can't see how a six shooter will be competative with a eight shot gun on the stages we commonly see. I think if the goal is to include the icore guys and guns into USPSA a better idea would be to tweek the production rules a little more, revolvers already have a holster and moon clip holder possition exeption but if you bobbed the hammer its illigal, just make any revolver (with iron sights) legal for production. I would bet that a 8 shot is more compoetative in production than a 6 shot would be against 8 shots in revolver.

Mike

See this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=168139

[Carmoney]

I'm going to make this rule change easy. Change Appendix D6 from:

9 Maximum ammunition capacity: No, maximum of 6 rounds fired

before reload

To:

9 Maximum ammunition capacity: No

Leave everything else the same.

Actually, I would be OK with that.

But I don't think it's productive to start offering the BOD all sorts of ideas. They have resolved to consider one issue only: 8-minor/6-major. Let's let them do that without distraction.

[Carmoney]

Hey, all right!! They took one of the least expensive divisions to achieve equipment parity in and practically doubled the cost!! (Well, I suppose you could use the same belt rig...).

Apparently, you're out of touch with what 5" Model 625s command on today's market......that's the gun you currently need to achieve parity in Revolver Division, if you can even find one. S&W discontinued them 4 or 5 years ago!

[No.343]

I'm going to make this rule change easy. Change Appendix D6 from:

9 Maximum ammunition capacity: No, maximum of 6 rounds fired

before reload

To:

9 Maximum ammunition capacity: No

Leave everything else the same.

Actually, I would be OK with that.

But I don't think it's productive to start offering the BOD all sorts of ideas. They have resolved to consider one issue only: 8-minor/6-major. Let's let them do that without distraction.

I think that this is hardly a distraction. This is a huge, fundamental change in this division and should be planned to the end. The people who proposed this change are willing to gamble on alienating current members on the possibility of bringing in new revolver enthusiasts from all interest groups. I think that this would include everyone who ever thought about competing with a revolver or thought about designing a new revolver. Rules that include more possibilities might bring some innovation to this division.

[cheryl]

I sent an email to the Area 6 Director Linda Chico as did 6 of my friends askig that she vote in favor of 8 shot Minor.

I sent an e-mail to the Area 6 Director Linda Chico as did 6 of my friends asking that she NOT vote in favor of 8 shot minor.

[bdpaz]

I sent an e-mail to the Area 6 Director Linda Chico as did 6 of my friends asking that she NOT vote in favor of 8 shot minor.

FWIW, that is two more than shot Revolver at last year's Area 6 Championship. (For the mathematically challenged that is 7 emails vs 5 competitors)

Edited June 25, 2013 by bdpaz

[Bosshoss]

Everyone is e-mailing their Area directors and voicing their opinions on this but what is being proposed and how will it be implemented?

I know 8minor/6major but what about the classifiers that was discussed in another thread and how to handle that? How long will the trial be? If attendance doesn't go up will it revert back to what it is now or another vote will be required?

I want to see revolver class grow but I don't want to see it killed off by a rule that some think will make it easy(8 shot gun= 8 shot array what could go wrong with that ).

I love the game as is but would be willing to see what happens if it is done right.

I can't wait for everyone to run out and get a competive 627 and then find out about .38 short colt brass they will need to be competive and oh yea don't forget the $7.50 each moonclips that you will need to be competive. You will cry when one of those gets stepped on.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Bosshoss

[pskys2]

With the current Revolver Division participation being so small, It seems this change is counting on the fact that most of those currently participating are die hard Revolver fans and will compete irregardless. And the change will draw in more due to it making COF's seem more friendly.

Time will tell.

[Carmoney]

I love the game as is but would be willing to see what happens if it is done right.

What game do we have now "as is"? Do you see a game? I don't see a game.

My next major match is the Iowa Sectional this coming weekend. There are presently zero revolvers signed up. Zero. So I guess I could shoot Revolver and be the "division champion" by default. Or I guess I could see how many bad semi-auto shooters I could beat with my revolver--I certainly won't beat anybody who is remotely decent with an auto.

What would be the point?

[Cd662]

Carmoney, I'm in shock by your statement. It's like someone actually gets it. Logic on the internet. I'm getting scared. Someone pinch me.

[BritinUSA]

My two cents; As USPSA is asking for feedback I was wondering if anyone from BOD is contacting the other revolver sports organizations or reaching out to revolver shooters in other sports to get their input.

If we are trying to grow participation in revolver, is the priority to grow it amongst existing members or bring new members into the sport from outside, if the latter then how is this proposal being distributed among non-members?

[Bosshoss]

I love the game as is but would be willing to see what happens if it is done right.

What game do we have now "as is"? Do you see a game? I don't see a game.

My next major match is the Iowa Sectional this coming weekend. There are presently zero revolvers signed up. Zero. So I guess I could shoot Revolver and be the "division champion" by default. Or I guess I could see how many bad semi-auto shooters I could beat with my revolver--I certainly won't beat anybody who is remotely decent with an auto.

What would be the point?

You are welcome to come to the Indiana section match we have 10 signed up so far and had 18 at the S/S, Prod. /Rev. Match earlier this year.

So your not shooting revolver at the Iowa match?

I shoot Revolver because I have fun no matter who or how many are there.

I just don't see revolver class booming with just allowing in 8 shot guns in. But maybe your right and it will take off.

It is a game and some of us Are having fun with it as is even if you are not.

[wheelie]

snipped a bunch...

I just don't see revolver class booming with just allowing in 8 shot guns in. But maybe your right and it will take off.

It is a game and some of us Are having fun with it as is even if you are not.

Seems to me that this has pretty much turned into a private act for those who particularly want to shoot 8 shot minor guns. If the only question before the BOD is "8 minor / 6 major" all the other ideas for improving revolver class are elimnated from consideration without any real discussion. Or am I missing some important step in communicating with the mother ship?

Edited June 25, 2013 by wheelie

[pskys2]

snipped a bunch...

I just don't see revolver class booming with just allowing in 8 shot guns in. But maybe your right and it will take off.

It is a game and some of us Are having fun with it as is even if you are not.

Seems to me that this has pretty much turned into a private act for those who particularly want to shoot 8 shot minor guns. If the only question before the BOD is "8 minor / 6 major" all the other ideas for improving revolver class are elimnated from consideration without any real discussion. Or am I missing some important step in communicating with the mother ship?

I'm not sold 100% and I don't have an 8 shot and just can't spend the cash in the near future. If it does happen I'll still be shooting my 625 for at least the 1st year.

But...the actual advantage, at least at a large match, is going to be dependent on stage design. Not necessarily needing 6 round neutral, but options of engagement will be critical. At larger matches that I've been to recently I actually think it would have been a wash.

But...at local matches, I'd bet the 8 shots will definitely have the advantage. Whether it will offset the point loss for a whole local match is the question.

And yes the 8 minor/6 major has found traction and been put forth and other ideas have been found to be a bit too radical or would become instantly dominant.

Edited June 26, 2013 by pskys2

[Carmoney]

snipped a bunch...

I just don't see revolver class booming with just allowing in 8 shot guns in. But maybe your right and it will take off.

It is a game and some of us Are having fun with it as is even if you are not.

Seems to me that this has pretty much turned into a private act for those who particularly want to shoot 8 shot minor guns. If the only question before the BOD is "8 minor / 6 major" all the other ideas for improving revolver class are elimnated from consideration without any real discussion. Or am I missing some important step in communicating with the mother ship?

Here's the thing, wheelie......we're not going to get the Board of Directors, either individually or collectively, to engage in any sort of in-depth discussion on this. It's not realistic to expect that they will weigh a bunch of different options on how to improve participation in Revolver. With all the stuff on the Board's agenda, this issue is going to get about two minutes at their next meeting. We need to put our best single idea in front of them.

As for your "private act" comment--I find it really disappointing. USPSA Phil Strader is the key player behind this change--he's not a Revolver guy, and is purely looking for ways to improve the organization. Our former president would have been happy to shit-can Revolver entirely, and I think we should be extremely grateful to Phil for trying to find ways to invigorate the division. Jerry Miculek, the one wheelgunner in the world with the least to prove, is strongly behind the change. Rob Leatham, the most influential IPSC/USPSA shooter of all time, is strongly supporting the change. The poll on my original thread is now showing a response that favors adoption of 8-minor almost three to one--clearly, the quiet majority wants to give this a try.

Personally, I want to shoot an 8-shot gun if it brings more people into the division. If that doesn't happen, I'm perfectly fine shooting my 625s, and I believe I can continue to be reasonably competitive with that platform. However, I'm not going to be the guy who shows up at a sectional or area match to shoot Revolver against no real competition, just so I can "win the division." It would not be fair to say that I am motivated to pass some "private act" for my own benefit, because that would not be the case at all--I can win more plaques and prizes by leaving things at status quo.

I really thought most of us would jump behind this 8-minor idea, recognizing the opportunity it may create for some meaningful growth. I'm really disappointed with the way it seems to be splintering our discussion core. But then again, I also need to remember that this is only the internet--and it's really easy for people to distort the discussion way out of reality here. It's really easy for a small but loud minority to get more attention than they deserve.

Most revolver shooters welcome the 8-minor concept. Once again--how can it possibly hurt to give this a try on a provisional basis?

[Chuck Anderson]

The BOD actually spent more time on this at the BOD meeting than just about every other rule change. And the only reason I voted for it was to get the information in front of the members. Nothing has been decided and won't be till we have another meeting (probably online, not in person) and actually vote to implement it. There is still plenty of time to contact your AD and express your opinion. Whether that's for/against 8 shot or for/against something else entirely. Phil told me he was planning to suggest this when I was shooting at Superstition this spring. I thought it was a horrible idea, for most of the reasons that have been mentioned. So I went and found the first three guys that I know who shoot revo. Jerry, Rich Wolfe and Neil Hogue. (I think I got those right). I honestly expected them to tell me it was also a bad idea and I could go on believing I was right. Every one of them said we should make the change. They even had some pretty good reasoning why it wouldn't be as big of a difference as I thought. Of course this is a non-representative sample with guys who reload a revolver much, much faster than the average shooter. The added reloads with 6 won't have as big of effect on them as say, me. The other side of this is our most dedicated revo shooter locally shoots a Ruger GP100. No way he's going to stuff 8 in there. All that said, with 24 pages of comments on the poll, obviously folks have been talking about this quite a bit. Until we voted to put this out for member comment, not a single person approached me with input either for or against. Since then I've received several emails. Apparently this is what it took to get some input.

I don't know how I will vote when the time comes. The majority of the emails I've received have been opposing the change. I think some of that is the nature of putting the question forward this way. The people who are very polarized one way or the other will give their input, the others, less so. I do think something needs to happen. I don't remember the last time I gave out a Division award at Area 1 in Revolver. I'd love to, but when there are only 2 or 3 shooters the rules don't support it. What we have now is not working. Personally, I'd like to fix it or kill it. Preference being to the first one, but if we can't get enough people to shoot it then what's the point?

[TGO]

The BOD actually spent more time on this at the BOD meeting than just about every other rule change. And the only reason I voted for it was to get the information in front of the members. Nothing has been decided and won't be till we have another meeting (probably online, not in person) and actually vote to implement it. There is still plenty of time to contact your AD and express your opinion. Whether that's for/against 8 shot or for/against something else entirely. Phil told me he was planning to suggest this when I was shooting at Superstition this spring. I thought it was a horrible idea, for most of the reasons that have been mentioned. So I went and found the first three guys that I know who shoot revo. Jerry, Rich Wolfe and Neil Hogue. (I think I got those right). I honestly expected them to tell me it was also a bad idea and I could go on believing I was right. Every one of them said we should make the change. They even had some pretty good reasoning why it wouldn't be as big of a difference as I thought. Of course this is a non-representative sample with guys who reload a revolver much, much faster than the average shooter. The added reloads with 6 won't have as big of effect on them as say, me. The other side of this is our most dedicated revo shooter locally shoots a Ruger GP100. No way he's going to stuff 8 in there. All that said, with 24 pages of comments on the poll, obviously folks have been talking about this quite a bit. Until we voted to put this out for member comment, not a single person approached me with input either for or against. Since then I've received several emails. Apparently this is what it took to get some input.

I don't know how I will vote when the time comes. The majority of the emails I've received have been opposing the change. I think some of that is the nature of putting the question forward this way. The people who are very polarized one way or the other will give their input, the others, less so. I do think something needs to happen. I don't remember the last time I gave out a Division award at Area 1 in Revolver. I'd love to, but when there are only 2 or 3 shooters the rules don't support it. What we have now is not working. Personally, I'd like to fix it or kill it. Preference being to the first one, but if we can't get enough people to shoot it then what's the point?

Everyone interested needs to read this carefully. Thanks Chuck for clearly stating the situation. He is 100% spot on on his evaluation of where the division is at this time. This is coming from not only one of our elected officials, but a shooter. One that doesn't shoot revolvers but will make the decision as to whether these proposed changes will be made.

Regardless of which side you are on, you can't ignore the truth when Chuck says fix it or kill it. This is a way that is easily implemented that may help the division grow. It will NOT make your current equipment illegal. If you are out there to have fun and wanna shoot 6 major, then have at it! How can this possibly hurt the sport or the division to try it?

More people have weighed in here with their opinions than even shoot in this division. The whole discussion is becoming a point to argue about. This is actually good because it is bringing attention to the division but the time has come to stop talking and act. Let them try this as a division rule change and see what happens.

If no more shooters show up with revolvers, no ICORE guys try USPSA, no increase in mission count, no increase in local and regional participation occurs, then let it sunset. Let the provisional change die. What in the world can it hurt to try? The small band of merry wheelgunners who now support this division have our attention now. Either be one of them or or let us do our business. Now, let your AD know if you want this or not and be sure to let him know whether you currently shoot, have in the past or would in the future if this change occurred. Or this would cause you to stop. Like Carmoney, I will shoot this as a National event and locally regardless of this issue. As the weak wristed slab side shooter mentioned in an earlier post, I can tell you the fun part of shooting revolver in local matches is greatly increased using the 8 shot. Hell, what do I have to gain by this change personally? Nothing! It sure ain't gonna help me beat Miculek!!

Edited June 26, 2013 by TGO