You be the RO

[rtr]

Both occurred at a Level II match. What would you do?

1. Shooter shoots half of a field course, as he is about to engage a target stops shooting and says "there are holes in the target".

9.1.4 allows the RO to decide if he can differentiate hits of current shooter vs. previous, I understand that. But if a shooter stops because of untaped targets how should the RO respond? Do the rules allow the RO to say "keep shooting" or does he have to ULASC the shooter and then give appropriate penalties if he can score the targets?

2. Shooter draws gun and fires a few shots, upon firing a shot magazine shoots out the bottom of the gun with the basepad, spring, rounds etc. flying all around (ie it was forced out the gun not just released with the mag release). Competitor and RO seemed to examine the gun together for a second and then he finished the course of fire. My question is what would you as the RO say in this situation? (We later determined he had likely had an out of battery firing which blew out part of the bottom of the case which caused the mag to be blown out).

Both of these questions get at what range commands are allowed between LAMR and ULASC other than STOP.

[Sarge]

Scenario 1 I would not say a word. It would get awkward probably. But as soon as the RO intervenes it becomes a reshoot.

Scenario 2 I would have stopped the shooter in the interest of safety as soon as the mag obviously blew out of the gun

[GrumpyOne]

Scenario #1. The shooter should not ever stop themselves, unless they see a situation that could be a safety issue (someone on a berm, squib, etc.). Shooter stops shooting, score COF as shot, counting all misses and FTE's.

Scenario #2. Could be a safety issue. If it was an out of battery detonation, there could possibly be a squib in the barrel. RO should stop the shooter, if for no other reason than to check for a possible squib.

Question: Did the entire mag blow out of the gun? Or was it just the internals? If it was just the internals, it could have been an over loaded mag with a weak base plate. In that case, don't stop the shooter...

[rtr]

The whole mag blew out.

[Poppa Bear]

#1 stay silent unless I know the previous shooter was shooting the same caliber. Then it is a judgement call as to whether I can determine who's shots are who's.

#2 STOP make sure everyone is OK and the gun survived. If the shooter is done for the day due to injury/rattled nerves/broken gun, then we score it as shot and wish them a speedy recovery. Otherwise give them a chance to relax a shooter or three and let them reshoot.

[Cy Soto]

Both occurred at a Level II match. What would you do?

1. Shooter shoots half of a field course, as he is about to engage a target stops shooting and says "there are holes in the target".

9.1.4 allows the RO to decide if he can differentiate hits of current shooter vs. previous, I understand that. But if a shooter stops because of untaped targets how should the RO respond? Do the rules allow the RO to say "keep shooting" or does he have to ULASC the shooter and then give appropriate penalties if he can score the targets?

Scenario 1 is covered under an NROI Ruling from July/2009: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/nroi_rulings.php?action=edit&indx=43

[bikerburgess]

1 I would not say anything, if the shooter turned their head and looked at me I would shrug my shoulders, if they asked a question I would answer it. If the just stopped shooting I would wait a long moment then ULSC and score as shot.

2 it would all depend on what I thought happened. If I think it is a squib then I call stop. If I think anything else I will ask if you are finished ULSC. If after the shooter looks at their gun and decides that it is good to go and continues the course of fire that is fine.

Mike

Mike

[rtr]

Thanks for posting that Cy.

[HI5-O]

1 "If you are finished, unload and show clear"

2 Sounds like both knew something was not right so I would have stopped the shooter for safety. If the barrel was clear, then reshoot.

[Nik Habicht]

Scenario 1 I would not say a word. It would get awkward probably. But as soon as the RO intervenes it becomes a reshoot.

Scenario 2 I would have stopped the shooter in the interest of safety as soon as the mag obviously blew out of the gun

Scenario 1 -- there's a range command you can use: "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the competitor does, score as shot; if the competitor is smart he'll realize the clock's running without you having coached him/her....

Scenario 2 -- I'd rather err on the side of "Stop," and a reshoot if there's no squib. Last thing I want is a competitor erroneously deciding -- while on the clock -- that their gun is fine....

[jester121]

1. Just for future reference, if you're staring at 2 alphas on an untaped target in the middle of a COF and have a brain freeze, for the love of God, don't put 2 more alphas on it and then stumble on through the stage.... throw a charlie or delta in the mix, thus guaranteeing your reshoot.

(I learned this the hard way at SIngle Stack Nationals and it is a lesson I will never forget)

[sperman]

1. Just for future reference, if you're staring at 2 alphas on an untaped target in the middle of a COF and have a brain freeze, for the love of God, don't put 2 more alphas on it and then stumble on through the stage.... throw a charlie or delta in the mix, thus guaranteeing your reshoot.

(I learned this the hard way at SIngle Stack Nationals and it is a lesson I will never forget)

Not necessarily. If the RO can determine which hits are yours (usually by a difference in caliber) then no reshoot.

At a State match about 3 years ago I saw a shooter argue with the RO on the clock for about 30 seconds because a target was unpasted. The problem was, he had shot that target from a different port earlier in the course of fire.

[ktm300]

1 "If you are finished, unload and show clear"

2 Sounds like both knew something was not right so I would have stopped the shooter for safety. If the barrel was clear, then reshoot.

+1

[BillChunn]

At a State match about 3 years ago I saw a shooter argue with the RO on the clock for about 30 seconds because a target was unpasted. The problem was, he had shot that target from a different port earlier in the course of fire.

Stages that have multiple views of targets tend to show up in my designs, even for local matches. It provides flexibility for the 6, 8 and 10 round folks.

BC

[High Lord Gomer]

When I rounded the corner and found targets not pasted at a state match a few years ago I turned to the RO and said, "Those targets weren't pasted." He merely turned the timer toward me to imply that the clock was still running. After I repeated my ignorance 2 or 3 times he gave me IYAF ULASC.

[GuildSF4]

Scenario 1 - (after a long pause) If you are finished unload and show clear.

Scenario 2 - As described 'Stop', then we can work out what happened.

[kevin c]

1. I might give the shooter a reshoot for an untaped target that gave him pause because it is a change in the COF that shouldn't be there and it affected his shooting, but because this is fraught with abuse potential, I am not going to stop the shooter unless I can see the extra holes and know it wasn't engaged by the shooter before. So basically its the same as GuildSF4, with a RS if I find the extra holes while scoring (regardless of whether the shooter finished the COF) or scored as shot otherwise.

2. Stop.

[ima45dv8]

When I rounded the corner and found targets not pasted at a state match a few years ago I turned to the RO and said, "Those targets weren't pasted." He merely turned the timer toward me to imply that the clock was still running. After I repeated my ignorance 2 or 3 times he gave me IYAF ULASC.

Was that me?

That's what I do whenever a competitor stops and starts talking about untaped targets. I smile, look at the time on the timer, and then turn the display so they can see it (subtle message --- IT'S STILL RUNNING!!). Usually after a second or two they get it and move on.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Scenario #1, do as others have stated show him the timer and then if he does not keep going ULSC. Score as shot and determine if targets has different caliber holes or same as shooter. I had this happen to me several years ago at my first Nationals. Came up over a bridge to engage a target tucked down low and right. As I came up over the bridge and brought my muzzle to bear I could see it was not taped from the previous shooter. I just yelled "Not taped" and put two in the A Zone and kept on trucking. Two targets later the RO stopped me and gave me a re-shoot. Point is, never stop for untapped targets. Shoot them and keep going and if necessary discuss it later.

Scenario #2, Stop! No way to tell if it was just a bad magazine, out of battery discharge or possible double charge. Always better to err on the side of safety. Record the time and score as shot, then determine if a re-shoot is warranted.

[Sin-ster]

1-- ULSC. He doesn't have to listen to me, because the preceding command stipulates "If you are finished..." (I'd definitely give a long pause and be sure that he had decided to stop, though. Most folks will drop the mag and begin ULSC before you give the command, especially in a situation like this.)

2-- Stop. The gun might be unsafe to fire again, for several reasons. A bulged or cracked barrel can be just as dangerous for the shooter and the RO as a squib.

[Jammer1911]

Senerio 1 - "If you are finished, Unload and show clear" etc etc

Scenerio 2 - Stop ULSC. Firearm needs to be checked for safe and if it is then deal with thereshoot issue for RO interference. (JMHO) Safety of the competitor and spectators (as well as RO) is paramount..

[Olivers_AR]

This,

1) Also like the one where you show them the timer.

2) Unsafe condition/RC Stop, ULSC, HDH, RC and take firearm to a safety area and check out firearm.

Scenerio 1 - "If you are finished, Unload and show clear" etc etc

Scenerio 2 - Stop ULSC. Firearm needs to be checked for safe and if it is then deal with thereshoot issue for RO interference. (JMHO) Safety of the competitor and spectators (as well as RO) is paramount..

[Thomas H]

1. I might give the shooter a reshoot for an untaped target that gave him pause because it is a change in the COF that shouldn't be there and it affected his shooting, but because this is fraught with abuse potential, I am not going to stop the shooter unless I can see the extra holes and know it wasn't engaged by the shooter before. So basically its the same as GuildSF4, with a RS if I find the extra holes while scoring (regardless of whether the shooter finished the COF) or scored as shot otherwise.

Hm. That isn't actually according to the rules. You don't stop a shooter for unpasted targets. If, after they have shot, you can't determine the score, then reshoot. If you can determine the score (for example, 9mm vs .40) then it is scored as shot. You don't stop a shooter just because they notice an unpasted target.

[High Lord Gomer]

When I rounded the corner and found targets not pasted at a state match a few years ago I turned to the RO and said, "Those targets weren't pasted." He merely turned the timer toward me to imply that the clock was still running. After I repeated my ignorance 2 or 3 times he gave me IYAF ULASC.

Was that me?

That's what I do whenever a competitor stops and starts talking about untaped targets. I smile, look at the time on the timer, and then turn the display so they can see it (subtle message --- IT'S STILL RUNNING!!). Usually after a second or two they get it and move on.

LOL...wasn't you but he might have gotten it from you. It was John2A.

[EEH]

Scenerio 1 happened at a match I went to,my buddy told the RO,hey those targets are pasted.The RO just looked at him, he finally finished the stage,no re shoot