beltjones Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 It's a method of getting a reshoot as old as time. You simply charge the RO, bump into him, and claim RO interference. It's obviously cheating when it's done intentionally to get a reshoot, but most of us have seen it happen. I don't think I need to iterate why this is bad for the sport, but because this is Enos I'll do it anyway. - It's dangerous to run into someone while holding a loaded gun. - It's cheating and not fair to one's competitors to get a reshoot this way. Why is it not a rule that an RO can specifically DQ someone for intentionally running into them? Perhaps it's the problem with determining "intention." If that's the case, then what about rule 10.6.3, which reads: "A competitor who is deemed by a Range Officer to have intentionally removed or caused the loss of eye or ear protection in order to gain a competitive advantage will be disqualified." In this case the RO can judge intention and DQ a competitor for committing an unsafe act in order to get a reshoot. If I were to write this rule I would probably make it similar to the one above. "A competitor who is deemed by a Range Officer to have intentionally contacted himself or another Range Officer in order to gain a competitive advantage will be disqualified." Discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I agree with Unsportsmanlike Conduct - but if it were spelled out it would make it without a doubt a DQ offense. It's ashamed that one would actually do this but I guess its no different than calling doubles when one knows it was Alpha Mike. Its mainly an integrity issue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 12, 2013 Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Yes it is unsportsmanlike conduct, you man of few words you. But why is the "removing eye/ear protection" thing enumerated under 10.6 but running into the RO isn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 The difference with eye or ear protection is that we have a visible act -- if the shooter uses a hand to remove his ears or glasses, well, that's that without an excellent explanation.... (If he's got a burn mark from hot brass under the glasses, I'll let him reshoot, after we get it sorted out; absent such a safety issue, DQ....) Accidental contact happens -- hence RO discretion on the reshoot. If I find out that a competitor intentionally ran into the RO, I'll dq the competitor -- but that's tough to determine, absent a confession/third party arbitration.... More likely if I thought it was intentional, but couldn't prove it -- I'd decline the reshoot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 12, 2013 Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 Can you decline a reshoot as the RO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Nik, Not starting any issues as I think this is a BS way to get a reshoot. BUT Under what rule would you "decline the reshoot"? The book clearly states that if you contact the RO its a RESHOOT - theres nothing there that says you as an RO can decline it. So you either A ) let them reshoot or B ) DQ them for Unsportsmanlike Conduct - as an RO you can't just make up your own rules you have to go by what the blue book says and its pretty clear that you have 2 options. Edited June 12, 2013 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Nik, Not starting any issues as I think this is a BS way to get a reshoot. BUT Under what rule would you "decline the reshoot"? The book clearly states that if you contact the RO its a RESHOOT - theres nothing there that says you as an RO can decline it. So you either A ) let them reshoot or B ) DQ them for Unsportsmanlike Conduct - as an RO you can't just make up your own rules you have to go by what the blue book says and its pretty clear that you have 2 options. 8.6.4 "...the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot..." That word "may" is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Yup - you got me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The rule covers "inadvertent contact" and gives the RO some discretion. The RO "may" offer a reshoot. If I feel the competitor has intentionally run into me, I remain silent. If the shooter then presses the issue, he has the option of taking it to arbitration. Should the arbitration committee feel that it was an accident a reshoot can be ordered. If not, the arbitration committee could also take Rule 10.6.1 to heart. 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. By the rule book, the RO has the authority to DQ, but to me it really depends on how the shooter handles themselves after ULSC. If they know they are "caught", they may not say a word. If they want to press it, then we press it. Just my opinion on how to handle it and so far I've not had it happen while I was the RO so I've not had to handle it. That all said, I've only seen it happen once where I was convinced it was a shooter attempting to get a reshoot and it just happened to be someone that had the reputation to support it. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Intent is awfully hard to prove in a court of law, so lets change that wording to Deliberately running into the RO. I've hit a couple RO's but only cause they didn't get out of the way, sure I forgot a target back there big mistake that's why I running up range, Ro should have anticipated it, wasn't he paying attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 The only time I saw it was quite obvious - a shooter left an array - mid array (not finishing it) to run uprange quite a bit to shoot a target that had 2 hits already on it. Maybe it wasn't intentional but man sure seemed sketchy - enough that the whole squad looked at each other like WTF just happened. I think there needs to be some sort of RULE to lay down exactly what the RO can do - I know you can claim 10.6.1 - but just put it in black and white that if you intentionally run into the RO you go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share Posted June 13, 2013 Intent is awfully hard to prove in a court of law, so lets change that wording to Deliberately running into the RO. I've hit a couple RO's but only cause they didn't get out of the way, sure I forgot a target back there big mistake that's why I running up range, Ro should have anticipated it, wasn't he paying attention? Yeah, intent is hard to prove, but "deliberate," that's a piece of cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Wow I have yet to see this. I think I might have trouble being a spectator and not speak out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I've never seen this either, but if I did, and it were blatantly obvious, 10.6.1 seems to cover it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes777 Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I have been the the guy that gets run into. In my mind, it is my responsibility to ensure safety while STAYING OUT OF THE WAY. Do I feel as if he charged me, a little? Yes. I saw him blow by the target, It was his prerogative to go back and engage the target. His run, His time. What I learned: turn the sensitivity up on the timer, so that you can stand back at least a few feet and get the time right. We as shooters do not want to be crowded by the RO, Its our run, our time. That being said, I greatly appreciate this volunteer sport and the people who volunteer to ensure safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Intent is awfully hard to prove in a court of law, so lets change that wording to Deliberately running into the RO. I've hit a couple RO's but only cause they didn't get out of the way, sure I forgot a target back there big mistake that's why I running up range, Ro should have anticipated it, wasn't he paying attention?So far, that's the only type of situations I've been involved in as both competitor and as RO. I've been offered reshoots, and have taken some, where I felt I was interfered with, and declined to take other offers as the contact had no or minimal effect on my performance.... As RO I've given some shooters the option, and had a roughly equal mix of accept/decline.... Generally I'm able to anticipate/dodge pretty effectively now -- the anticipation was herder when I had less experience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Intent is awfully hard to prove in a court of law, so lets change that wording to Deliberately running into the RO. I've hit a couple RO's but only cause they didn't get out of the way, sure I forgot a target back there big mistake that's why I running up range, Ro should have anticipated it, wasn't he paying attention? Yeah, intent is hard to prove, but "deliberate," that's a piece of cake. I don't think deliberate is any easier than intent, in a sport that's played as seriously as some play it here.... I've run shooters who are way faster and more agile than I am -- without problems, because of experience..... That doesn't mean that they couldn't run into me while making a legit retrograde movement, or while executing a "different approach" to the stage.... Judging that such contact was deliberate is equivalent to divining intent in my mind. The principle has always been that it's the shooter's free fire zone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 The only time I saw it was quite obvious - a shooter left an array - mid array (not finishing it) to run uprange quite a bit to shoot a target that had 2 hits already on it. Maybe it wasn't intentional but man sure seemed sketchy - enough that the whole squad looked at each other like WTF just happened. I think there needs to be some sort of RULE to lay down exactly what the RO can do - I know you can claim 10.6.1 - but just put it in black and white that if you intentionally run into the RO you go home. Brandon, how do you prove intent to the satisfaction of the CRO/RM/Arb Committee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 how do you prove intent to the satisfaction of the CRO/RM/Arb Committee? Well if he just screwed the pooch stage wise and is looking me straight in the eyes as he charges at me, well I would be satisfied. I can't see an honest shooter doing it. And even the dishonest shooter doesn't do it unless he really messed up the stage. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 The only time I saw it was quite obvious - a shooter left an array - mid array (not finishing it) to run uprange quite a bit to shoot a target that had 2 hits already on it. Maybe it wasn't intentional but man sure seemed sketchy - enough that the whole squad looked at each other like WTF just happened. I think there needs to be some sort of RULE to lay down exactly what the RO can do - I know you can claim 10.6.1 - but just put it in black and white that if you intentionally run into the RO you go home. Brandon,how do you prove intent to the satisfaction of the CRO/RM/Arb Committee? Its a 100% judgement call - you can't prove it - but how can you prove he DIDN'T? It sucks and really there is no way around it - in fact its almost a sure fire way to get a Reshoot if you tank a stage - just run backwards fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwana Six-Gun Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 In my experience as an RO for quite a few years, the average shooter will not try this, simply because they don't think about it in time to not be obvious. The ones you have to look for are the guys that are in contention for match or division win and they are usually well known. I just watch the guys really close and if their squad comes up when one of the other RO's on the stage is scheduled for the timer, I just tell them "I'll take this squad" and they know what I am talking about because we discuss this in advance before the first squad arrives. Intention or deliberate is almost impossible to prove. You have to rely on experience and be prepared. My .02 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I call them the special needs squad. SNS not SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 how do you prove intent to the satisfaction of the CRO/RM/Arb Committee? Well if he just screwed the pooch stage wise and is looking me straight in the eyes as he charges at me, well I would be satisfied. I can't see an honest shooter doing it. And even the dishonest shooter doesn't do it unless he really messed up the stage. Bill You dq the shooter -- he arbs it -- I see it getting overturned, and turning into a near-sure thing reshoot..... Right now, it's RO discretion -- hard to arb that. In fact, I'd argue damn near impossible..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 The only time I saw it was quite obvious - a shooter left an array - mid array (not finishing it) to run uprange quite a bit to shoot a target that had 2 hits already on it. Maybe it wasn't intentional but man sure seemed sketchy - enough that the whole squad looked at each other like WTF just happened. I think there needs to be some sort of RULE to lay down exactly what the RO can do - I know you can claim 10.6.1 - but just put it in black and white that if you intentionally run into the RO you go home. Brandon, how do you prove intent to the satisfaction of the CRO/RM/Arb Committee? Its a 100% judgement call - you can't prove it - but how can you prove he DIDN'T? It sucks and really there is no way around it - in fact its almost a sure fire way to get a Reshoot if you tank a stage - just run backwards fast. Don't think I agree -- see post above for rationale.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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