Mousefart Challenge

[Flexmoney]

OK...everybody wants the softest shooting Minor load they can find. And, I'll admit, there are some loads out there that feel pretty soft. However, I don't know how much performace gain actually comes out of these soft feeling loads.

So...here is the challenge:

Run some drills or stages, using Wally-world Winchester Val-u-pak and/or Blazer 115's, then run them again with the mousefartable load that you have cooked up on old blue.

Then repeat a few times (so we don't just have cases where the second run is faster because it is the second run).

Then share you performance. I'm not really interested in who can shoot the smallest groups. We need to compare points and time (hit factors).

I would assume that the mousefartable loads will prove to be a slight edge. Let me know.

Oh...please state your load, your shooting rig, and your class.

[ANeat]

Ive worked up my own loads for production with a heavier bullet for several reasons.

I already have the reloading equipment and enjoy using it so "why not?"

Using a heavier bullet has more knockdown power for steel.

Being able to load closer to "minor". Im being scored minor so I might as well shoot minor.

FWIW I think my 147gr loads have a similar power factor to the bargain 115gr loads (perhaps a little less )but the heavier bullets do have a different recoil feel. More of a push instead of a snap. Personal preference I guess.

Now I am pretty new at USPSA shooting so what would be a good recommend drill for such a test to compare. Perhaps a Bill Drill, no reloads, just draw and shoot.

If I can get my buddy Nick to go with me we could do a blind test. Have one guy load up a magazine, not letting the other guy know what ammo is in it, and shoot the drill. Do this several times randomly mixing between factory rounds and reloads.

Sounds pretty interesting to me, and a good reason to go out and shoot

Adam

[ong45]

In my experience minor loads are nicer to shoot mostly because there is no loud muzzle blast to distract, also easier to hear the plates ( for steel challenge)

When i have had to shoot major loads for steel though, i usually get an exceptionally good time , so go figure

James

[EricW]

For a minute I was going to tackle the Mouse Outgas Challenge, but then I realized that my time would be better spent on cosmology and squaring the circle.

[Reverse Psychology Mode OFF]

[Vlad]

I know my scores have gone up as I have gone to a softer load (though my gun has more problems with the soft loads, but that is another thread). How much of that is psychosomastic and how much is real I do not know. Does it matter?

I shoot a CZ75B with 147FMJ over 3.1gr of Tightgroup (128PF) or 3.2gr (132PF) or 3.3gr (138PF). The 3.1 is one soft load and the last classifiers I shot where around 70% (not posted on uspsa.org yet so I'm guessing based on scores posted in the other forum category). I am not yet classified in production but I used to shoot solid C scores. I think the soft loads combined with my new glasses helped.

The rest of the rig is CR speed belt, 2 Uncle Mike's double mag holders and Cen-Dex Storm for the holster.

Actually your test would be interesting. Maybe shooting an El Prez over and over again alternating ammo would be something to try, but I suspect it would screw with your timing so I'm not sure how much I would trust the results. I suspect the mental game and the confidence based on the lesser recoil and blast may make more of a difference then the actual recoil and blast.

Vlad

[Steve Moneypenny]

welll, i don't have exact figures as i don't keep a ready supply of factory ammo on hand. however i can state this.

a couple years ago i shot a beretta elite 2 exclusively for over a year from just barely in expert SSP to well into master SSP during this time i shot a variety of ammo, my reloads, factory from all over the world.

what i learned was that the factory rounds cause more sight disruption. as those of you who have good grip know produciton guns don't really have sight "lift" they have sight "retraction" with a little tiny bit of lift in lighter bullet weights.

my conclusions after many rounds was. that the 115's from the factory cause me to drop about 5% more points than with my ligher loads (which used to be 135's as i didn't feel the 147's moved the gun fast enough for me)

i shoot everything about the same speed with an open sight, i slow down a little with a full power 45 but i shot both loads the exact same speed. and found that the more recoil the more dropped points for me. i will pick up some ammo and run some tests for actual comparrison once i get a few "mousefart" loads worked up... and i'm secretly working on some "gnat fart" loads that should make the mouse fart loads obsolete :-D

[Flexmoney]

OK guys...I am gonna nip this in the bud.

I don't give a ratsass about anything but pure RAW DATA.

I have been listening to everybody's reasons and feelings for going to the mousefartable loads (for years now). What I want is some cold hard numbers. Lots of them. So we can say, without a doubt, how much better the mousefartable loads make the shooting.

(James, I am basically talking about comparing Factory 115's against other "soft" minor loads. But, I know what you are saying about the Major vs. Minor stuff. I experience some of that at times too.)

[Steve Anderson]

You don't give a rats ass about a mouse fart?

Check out the rodent fetish on Flex.

I have no raw data to report sir, hence I shall scurry away from your chesse laden trap.

SA

[BigDave]

No one will be able to give Flex the numbers.

[Sam]

OK Flex, I'm in. I'll run some plate racks and Bill Drills with my CZ-75. But, nothing that requires moving my aging body very much.

Obviously, field courses should be avoided for this experiment. If we were all carrying lighter loads, we would certainly run faster, horribly skewing the results.

This is kinda like "Flexman does Mythbusters" isn't it? I like it!

Maybe we could expand it and start a new experiment each week? Is it really a bad idea to leave your .38 Super ammo baking on the dashboard on a 100 degree day? Just how much excess headspace in an AR, is too much? Hey......I think Flex has a new idea for the Outdoor Channel? Get Micheal Bane over here.......

Gun Busters? (Don't try this with your Grandad's Damascus barreled 12 gauge kiddies.....we're what you call Professionals)

Soooooo......just how much quicker is an "A" hit at 7 yards out of a speed rig than a Kydex carry holster?

[Steve Moneypenny]

Sam. for me right at .2-.4 seconds faster depending on the carry holster.

[38supPat]

Maybe you should post a standard sage (ie: El Prez) that you wish to use as a basis Flex?

[EricW]

No one will be able to give Flex the numbers.

Am I the only one who thinks this might be the funniest forum thread ever.

"Well, my times weren't better with MF9, but if I could use a 180 gr. bullet and a small charge of Semtex, I just *know* they could be."

5 bucks says that 1911 users see a *slight* positive correlation in time reduction and that Glock shooters see a negative correlation.

[BigDave]

No one will be able to give Flex the numbers.

Am I the only one who thinks this might be the funniest forum thread ever.

"Well, my times weren't better with MF9, but if I could use a 180 gr. bullet and a small charge of Semtex, I just *know* they could be."

5 bucks says that 1911 users see a *slight* positive correlation in time reduction and that Glock shooters see a negative correlation.

No. I think it is funny, which is the origin of my first post. I just can't figure out how serious the original question is. If it was serious, it is no longer funny, its freakin' hilarious.

[John Dunn]

I would encourage participants to blind themselves to their ammo selection if possible. Have someone else load for you so there is less bias, or draw a mag at random out of a bag.

[driver8M3]

ok...here are some real #s.

at the MD gssf match in may of this year, i had a personal best plate total of 13.51. i practiced a lot before that match. that time was about 2 seconds faster than anything i had ever had prior to that. i used federal 147gr ammo.

at the NY gssf match a couple of weeks ago, using my best mousefart load (3.2gr VVN310, zero fmj bullets, mixed brass, 1.150 oal) i managed a 12.74. i shot a few matches in between those 2 but didnt get close to those times. in addition, i didnt practice much at all before the NY match.

i'm pretty sure i had 2 extra shots at both matches...so the mousefart load saved me about 0.2 seconds per run (gssf plate stages are the combined time for 4 separate strings, 6 plates each). its tough to pin the improvements to the load alone, but i also had my 2 best match totals ever at the NY match using the light stuff.

[midvalleyshooter]

Sorry Flex, no raw data:)

But a couple years ago while preparing for a match I shot a few thousand rounds of Bear Creek 147's over 4.3 grains of Unique spread over several weeks. My plan was to then switch to Wally World Win. white box. But the white box stuff had a different recoil impulse and threw off my timing.

Pick a drill and I will run it tomorrow after the match with my mouse farts and Win. white box. I am shooting the IDPA Classifier and its my third time out with the G34, (well at least this G34:). This after my two year journey in SASS. (Heard at a local SASS match, "Watch out for that gamer over there, he shoots mouse fart loads and he used to shoot IDPCA"). IDPCA, is that the outfit that looks out for mistreated animals???

Keith

[Kingman]

Steve secret mix is in the process of being worked out.

Its going to be a nutty thing.

Jake will be testing also.

[Jake Di Vita]

(Evil laugh mode on)

Muahahahahaha.

(Evil laugh mode off)

[SRT Driver]

My gun does not run on anything less than 135 pf.

So 125 Pf loads are slower!

[Flexmoney]

It doesn't making much difference what drill/stage anybody runs. In fact, variety would be best. We just need numbers to compare (multiple back-to-back runs would be best).

[rsotelo]

I have been trying to perfect the "bunny fart" load. Not as soft as the mouse fart load, but quicker and alot cuter.

-RS

[Steve Moneypenny]

after tomorrows match i may have to nick name my load the bunny fart!!!!!!

[Sam]

I just came back from the range with these results.

CZ-75 Production rig, starting from surrender. What ever gun I'm shooting, I often like to practice a 5 yard dot drill on a 2" dot. It's a good basic drill and helps me to focus on accuracy. All shots have to touch the dot for the run to count. BTW, I probably haven't put 100 rounds though my CZ in the last 6 months.

I started by warming up with 50 rounds of 124 grain lead mouse, 3.3 grains of Titegroup. Then I ran five dot drills with everything touching the dot. Average time 3.65. I immediately switched to some Sellier& Belliot 115 FMJ that is pretty warm. Five runs averaged 3.38. The first thing I noticed was how the sight was tracking right back to the place it lifted. The next thing I realized was that my grip felt really effortless. I think the mouse loads require some "assistance" to return the gun on target. Just to verify, I went back to the mouse loads for a few more runs. The runs were back in the 3.70 range. The gun feels "flat" with loads so light. I normally run about 145 PF when shooting IDPA with this gun.

The test reminded me of the sensation I get when I put the Colt Ace conversion on my 1911 after shooting up all my .45 ammo. It's like kissing your sister.

[midvalleyshooter]

After shooting the classifier today I took on the mouse fart challenge with my stock G34 with Heine sights.. I ran our plate rack at 10 yards, these are 6 inch plates. I started at low ready and alternated mags of my mousefart loads with mags of Winchester white box. Recoil was snappier with the Win. ammo but the times all ran 3.60 to 3.90. I seemed to be more consistant with the Winchester ammo. My mouse farts are 147 with just a pinch of Unique.

I shot the classifier twice today, I was the first shooter of the day, and the last. Missed expert on the first try with 2 mikes (7 yd upper A zone and 20 yd center target) at a time of 124. Later I made it with a 114 but still missed an upper A zone at 7 yards. My targets on stage 3 were very ugly on the second run but all the hits were there. My goal is IDPA master in 2005.

Man it was good to get out and shoot. Even with clouds and light rain

Keith