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Turner not set + Pistol malfunction: Reshoot or not?


Cy Soto

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Here's the scenario... On the first stage of the day, a shooter comes to the line and, after the buzzer, he takes two shots on the first target before his pistol stops working (due to bad ammunition). He stops himself, shows clear and the targets are scored. The next shooter gets called to the line and, before he is given the Make Ready command he points out that a drop turner on the COF was never set.

The previous shooter (the one who had the pistol malfunction) never made it to that part of the COF so neither he nor the RO were aware that this target hadn't been set. Had he made it there, a "range malfunction" would have been declared and he would have been granted a re-shoot.

So here's the question: since the range wasn't set correctly, should the first shooter still be granted a re-shoot even though he stopped himself before arriving at that target?

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Hmm. That is a tough one. My initial thought would be he stopped, score as shot. Since another shooter was given the make ready command, the prior competitor is done. Certainly, If the scores were written down and the scoresheet signed, done and the only path would be arbitration.

It is not what we think though, it is what the rulebook says. I will have to go search a bit.

Edited by MarkCO
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I would have to give it to the shooter. If my course of fire is not set then it is my fault. yes he did stop himself true but if he had gotten to that point it would have been a reshoot anyways. save the money for the guy make a good name for yourself as a fair RO and do the right thing. Now if the stage was set up and no issues where there then no reshoot at all

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i would say he just got lucky and gets a reshoot

I agree and, in fact, it was I who noted that the turner was not set and told the RO that the previous shooter deserved a reshoot. The RO did not agree with me but I told the first shooter that, if I was in his shoes, I would check with the MD. He eventually was granted the reshoot but, like MarkCO said, I want to make certain that this call is supported by the rulebook.

Edited by Cy Soto
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The equipment was not set. After that is confirmed, the shooter gets a reshoot regardless of what happened with his gun.

It is the ROs responsibility to make sure the COF is reset correctly for each shooter.

Shooter got lucky, I must say.

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the job of the RO is to esnure safety first, rules second and fairness third. but not to be a d@#$ then you get a bad rep and no one will want you to work the matches. just have fun and ask yourself what would you expect done for you and how do you wish to be treated. i refuse to be the drill sargent type RO.

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I think I got the answer to my question in Rule 4.6.2: A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken.

The rule states "or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a COF" so I am quite certain that the correct call was made.

Thanks for your input folks!

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If it was a club match, I would let him have the reshoot as the next shooter was not given the "Make ready" command when the turner was spotted. I tell my guys that club matches are where we learn, sounds like he learned to check his ammo. It doesn't leave a good taste in a shooter's mouth to fire two shots and go home, benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. My .02

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The only actual rule I can find that addresses the issue at hand is 4.6.1 which would deem it a REF. However, 9.1.4 does tend to support a scored as shot even though it does not specifically address the failure to reset.

I think this is one that you should send to Amidon and get an official interpretation. We can all argue and take bets, but Amidon is the final authority on the rules interpretations.

RE post #10. IF the scoresheet was signed, it is out of the ROs hands and needs to go to the RM. As the RM, based on 4.6.1, NOT 4.6.2, I would have issued a reshoot.

Edited by MarkCO
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i refuse to be the drill sargent type RO.

You make a good point. There certainly is a thin line between "enforcing the rules" and "acting like a Drill Sargent." The opposite is also true; sometimes RO's can be a little too relaxed on their calls because they are afraid to DQ one of their buddies - but that's a whole'nother topic. Thanks again!

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I would give it to the guy but let's look at the rules: The first shooter's COF ended with "Range is clear". It was stated that the targets were scored. Was the DT noticed during the scoring or sometime later? If it was noticed during scoring, it should be a reshoot. If it was later and the shooter had signed for the scores, he is done. It could be arbitrated but it would have to be determined when the DT became unset.

Later,

Chuck

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Was the DT noticed during the scoring or sometime later?

Neither of the RO's walked past the first target (because ot was the only one that the shooter had engaged) so they did not notice that the turner had not been set until the next shooter pointed it out.

Can you 1000000% guarantee that it some how was unset or activated after he stopped himself?

He decided that he was done.

No reshoot

I am 100% certain that the target hadn't been set prior to the first shooter's attempt at the COF.

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No reshoot.

We can not transport ourselves through time. The shooter stopped himself on his time, for his problem. Scored as shot. Signed sheet.

D/T is on another shooters time and scoresheet.

There are rules for the first shooter. There are rules for the D/T shooter. There are no rules for the First shooter with regards to the D/T. None. The first shooters course of fire ENDED. We can only apply the knowledge known when the course of fire ended.

It's crappy, I hope he would win in arb, but he wouldn't get a reshoot from me and I'm about as easy an RO/CRO as it gets.

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I am in the reshoot camp. First shooter on first stage should have had the DT activated as a demonstration. Was the activator reset but they failed to reset the DT? If the shooter was capable of continuing the match I would offer the reshoot.

let's say the shooter made it to the DT and the gun failed the target before the activator. It is still REF so a reshoot is ordered.

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I think I got the answer to my question in Rule 4.6.2: A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken.

The rule states "or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a COF" so I am quite certain that the correct call was made.

Thanks for your input folks!

4.6.2 says "due to".. he wasnt unable to complete the course of fire due to the REF, it was due to his bad ammo. If he would have struggled through the stage until the REF, then reshoot.

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This has nothing whatsoever with being a jerk or "Drill Sergeant." It has everything to do with following the rulebook and being as consistent as poossible in the application of the rules.

Yes, the equipment should have been reset - no argument. But, here is the chronological sequence of what happened:

1. Start signal

2. Target(s) engaged.

3. Competitor equipment malfunction. Here are the rules that cover that:

5.7.2 In the event that a competitor’s handgun malfunctions after the Start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire........

5.7.4 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the handgun safely downrange and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) in the normal manner. The course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as shot including all applicable misses and penalties.

Since the competitor stopped themselves, the stage is over and scored as shot.

What about REF?

4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to<br />his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken.

The competitor was NOT unable to complete the course of fire due to the REF. They never got to the point that they would have been unable to complete the COF due to REF. The competitor WAS unable to finish the COF because of competitor equipment malfunction.

No reshoot. Scored as shot.

Bad break for the competitor? Yep. Unfortunately, that happens.

Edited by sfchorn
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I would say the key here is "will be scored as shot". How would you score the drop-turner? Give the shooter a procedural for not activating it?

Since there was a REF, the stage can't be scored properly and a reshoot should be awarded. The fact that he didnt get to the malfunctioning target should really matter IMHO.

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I would say the key here is "will be scored as shot". How would you score the drop-turner? Give the shooter a procedural for not activating it?

Since there was a REF, the stage can't be scored properly and a reshoot should be awarded. The fact that he didnt get to the malfunctioning target should really matter IMHO.

Yes, he gets FTE's for anything he didnt shoot at. He didnt shoot at the activator, FTE.

Edited by DWFAN
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I would say the key here is "will be scored as shot". How would you score the drop-turner? Give the shooter a procedural for not activating it?

Since there was a REF, the stage can't be scored properly and a reshoot should be awarded. The fact that he didnt get to the malfunctioning target should really matter IMHO.

Yes, he gets FTE's for anything he didnt shoot at. He didnt shoot at the activator, FTE.

How do you give him a FTE for something he couldnt shoot at?

From rule 4.6.2

"... if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken"

The rules clearly say attempt course of fire, not attempt to shoot at the malfunctioning target, so whether he actually got to the target or not doesnt matter.

Edited by gose
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