BillR1 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Is it "within the rules" in IPSC/USPSA to design a stage that starts with an RO-induced double feed in the gun? I realize it's probably good practice, although few of us shoot our carry guns in competition. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 So you want everyone to start with a malfunction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 It does sound practical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 8.1.3 is rather vague about non-standard ready conditions, but I think you will have a hard time finding a RM or MD that would allow this. As a competitor, I don't want an RO trying to intentionally induce a jam in my gun. As an RO, I don't want to be handling competitors' loaded handguns. If I showed up at a match that listed this as a ready condition, I would tell them to give me a 0 for the stage and let me start loaded and holstered. I bet if you asked shooters in your area, they would tell you the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) I'm as against it as ya'll are!! This was something that happened last month at a "USPSA rules" match. The start position was gun extended downrange with an RO-induced double feed. We had to clear the malfunction (ON the clock!) before engaging the targets. I had a tough time with it due to the bottom of my mags fitting fairly flush to the magwell. The stage seemed a little strange, and was made up on the spot to fill some time. I wanted to see if this was even legal since I'd never heard of anything like this. Edited June 4, 2013 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I don't think it's a good idea, but If you can write up a description of the handgun ready condition, that part would be legal. Don't forget revolvers. I don't think having the RO ready the gun will fly. 8.1 ...the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun. 8.3.2 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accor- dance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 The start position was gun extended downrange with an RO-induced double feed. 8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touch- ing with the lower arms). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I'm not sure what a "USPSA rules match" is, but it sounds like they failed with this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 I'm not sure what a "USPSA rules match" is, but it sounds like they failed with this stage. Agreed! Its a small club match with usually 15-25 shooters per month. They use USPSA scoring and "rules", but there are no equipment divisions or restrictions other than no optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 You should contact your Area Director and Section Coordinator and have them contact the club. They either need to comply fully with our rules, or not even mention them at their matches. This stage was totally outside several USPSA rules, as many have mentioned here, and the no equipment divisions or restrictions doesn't follow our rule book either. To answer the original question, per USPSA rules, NO. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I'm not sure what a "USPSA rules match" is, but it sounds like they failed with this stage. Agreed! Its a small club match with usually 15-25 shooters per month. They use USPSA scoring and "rules", but there are no equipment divisions or restrictions other than no optics. Sounds like they're using USPSA rules as a template but aren't actually an official USPSA club (otherwise they would have the standard divisions and such). If that's the case then as a separate club they technically can make up any exceptions to the "rules" that they want, though I personally wouldn't want to shoot such a stage. Just seems unsafe to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Sounds like they're using USPSA rules as a template but aren't actually an official USPSA club (otherwise they would have the standard divisions and such). I always saw that kind of thing as stealing Intellectual Property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I'm not sure what a "USPSA rules match" is, but it sounds like they failed with this stage. Agreed! Its a small club match with usually 15-25 shooters per month. They use USPSA scoring and "rules", but there are no equipment divisions or restrictions other than no optics. Sounds like they're using USPSA rules as a template but aren't actually an official USPSA club (otherwise they would have the standard divisions and such). If that's the case then as a separate club they technically can make up any exceptions to the "rules" that they want, though I personally wouldn't want to shoot such a stage. Just seems unsafe to me. Yep, as long as they don't even remotely describe or advertise the event using the name "USPSA". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 I think the club would be more accurate by stating that they use USPSA SCORING and not the rules. That would be a true statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 and what were they doing with the revolver shooters exactly? agree with the above, this is a horrible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 As others have pointed out, there's no way to be equitable to the revolver shooters in this scenario, but then they are only shooting against other revolver shooters. As close as I can think to be legal would be to start the non-revolver competitors slide closed on an empty chamber with an empty mag in the gun. You would have to drop the empty, insert a fresh mag, and rack the slide. Not quite simulating a double feed, since you wouldn't need to rip out the empty mag, but I think that's about as close as the rules would allow you to get. Really, though, this is not something to simulate as a start position. Plenty of people end up having to clear all kinds of malfunctions on the clock during matches. And it's a much better test of your gunhandling abilities when you don't know it's coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I can't help wondering what someone was thinking... "Dangit! Everybody else's gun runs but mine. I'll show them". {kicks toe into dirt, stiffles a sniffle, and sets about designing a truly sad attempt at a USPSA stage} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Sounds like a club with an IDPA "Real life situation" type match. Not sure if its even IDPA legal though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I can't help wondering what someone was thinking... "Dangit! Everybody else's gun runs but mine. I'll show them". {kicks toe into dirt, stiffles a sniffle, and sets about designing a truly sad attempt at a USPSA stage} I would hate to see how someone that loads a lot of squibs would start you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmauk Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Shoot a match like that to I shot revolver we started normal every one else has to clear the double feed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Lol, this is not an unusual start in idpa matches around here. we do it a couple times a year. So far no one has had a cow. We don't really care about revolver shooters or being equitable. They're in a different division anyway (if one shows up, which is rare). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 So, make the shooter induce the double feed instead of the RO. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Why not just have the shooter dump the mag in the gun and rack the slide.........same deal without the round falling outta the chamber/slide area and give the same time as the Double Feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Well, Troy's already given his opinion on this, and it's no. Besides.... what do you do for a wheelgun shooter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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