Poppers and strong winds at level II match..

[falconpilot]

How about this..happened to me at Level II match today...

I was third shooter in squad...all steel had fresh paint... I shot my stage with popper being last target shot. I, RO, most shooters saw the bullet impact dead center of calibration zone on popper..Popper remained standing...

Called for calibration test, propper went down..here's the problem... Due to incoming weather, wind was whipping it today...I'm shooting major power factor, 9mm 124, 1412 avg...when I got home this evening, I pulled 6 rounds out of bag without looking, fired over crony...1386 fps was lowest..1421 highest..shot on stage sounded, recoiled normally...

I know I was making more than 125 power factor so popper should have fallen, but I'm convinced the gusty winds and bad timing cost me a miss... Was there any other option for me today after the pop gun dropped the popper and RM called it miss???

[atbarr]

After the popper falls, there is no recourse.

[falconpilot]

Being that it was a clear center hit, and clear that I'm shooting major power factor, it would be nice to see something in the rules regarding such a situation... It wasn't range equipment failure, or failure on shooters part...it was environmental conditions that clearly the shooter or RM could not prevent.....it would be nice to see something favoring the shooter in such a case.....something like...instead of testing popper with calibration gun and ammo, why not shot it with the exact gun and ammo that was just ruled as a miss because it didn't take the popper down, this proving it was an outside factor cause the popper to not fall, not the fault of the shooter....

[DWFAN]

How can you shoot it again with the exact ammo that was just shot? There is no way to determine that the shot that didnt knock down the steel was 125+pf without sending that exact round over a chrono on its way to the popper. Sound and recoil dont matter.

Im not saying your round was below pf, Im thinking you got hosed.. but I dont see a meaningful, impartial way to fix it with a rule.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Poppa Bear]

Unfortunately you can get a reshoot if the wind knocks it over but there is no provision for a reshoot if the wind keeps it from falling.

[aztecdriver]

Being that it was a clear center hit, and clear that I'm shooting major power factor, it would be nice to see something in the rules regarding such a situation... It wasn't range equipment failure, or failure on shooters part...it was environmental conditions that clearly the shooter or RM could not prevent.....it would be nice to see something favoring the shooter in such a case.....something like...instead of testing popper with calibration gun and ammo, why not shot it with the exact gun and ammo that was just ruled as a miss because it didn't take the popper down, this proving it was an outside factor cause the popper to not fall, not the fault of the shooter....

Because environmental factors are not able to be duplicated for each and every situation. How fair is it that it's pouring rain on a set of shooters one day and bright and sunny for shooters the next day? It's part of the game. I've seen wind move targets slightly back and forth - it would be just as possible to say I wouldn't have missed and gotten a D if the target didn't sway 1 inch in the wind - I want a reshoot.

Still - steel must fall to score. The only thing that you have as a recourse to a hit popper that remains up is to challenge the calibration of the popper. You are not challenging the conditions, the shot, your gun, or anything else. You are simply challenging whether the piece of steel would not fall with a calibration hit. Otherwise, the scoring rules apply - steel must fall to score. I don't see how shooting the popper with the gun that hit it would benefit you. If anything it would hinder everyone as another 170 pf hit has more of a chance of dropping it - and I don't ever see environmental factors being taken into consideration as it opens the door for all kinds of arguments that could be trivial.

I once saw a shooter hit a popper square 6 times and it remained up. Called for a calibration challenge and it fell. it was definitely out of calibration and got driven back to the point one more round sent it over. Some things in this game are "it is what it is".

Edited May 31, 2013 by aztecdriver

[Nik Habicht]

Being that it was a clear center hit, and clear that I'm shooting major power factor, it would be nice to see something in the rules regarding such a situation... It wasn't range equipment failure, or failure on shooters part...it was environmental conditions that clearly the shooter or RM could not prevent.....it would be nice to see something favoring the shooter in such a case.....something like...instead of testing popper with calibration gun and ammo, why not shot it with the exact gun and ammo that was just ruled as a miss because it didn't take the popper down, this proving it was an outside factor cause the popper to not fall, not the fault of the shooter....

It's not clear that you were shooting major power factor ammo at the popper. The only rounds at the match we know made power factor, are the ones fired over the chrono -- the others you get credit for as they're likely the same, but we "don't know that." Given how many squib loads I've seen, and how many shooters I've seen with ammo that majorly changes how it sounds from shot to shot, what you're requesting isn't doable....

I'm sorry you got hosed by the weather. Unfortunately that sometimes happens -- wind, rain, changes in lighting and contrast, all part of the game....

[falconpilot]

I hear what you guys are saying....not saying that I don't make mistakes while reloading, but I personally know it was a good round and square, solid hit....shot enough to tell difference in a light load and normal load through recoil and dot movement.....just my time and bad luck I guess...anywhere but a level II would have been nice though...guess it is what it is....took me a stage or two to get over it, and by then I'd really screwed myself out of any chance placing near the top in A class...lessons learned...

On another note, on next stage, watched a guy shooting a .45 shot a KD steel down only to have it bounce off the rubber stop back into upright position, as if it was never shot...what is the ruling on that...it was count as a hit..

Edited May 31, 2013 by falconpilot

[Chills1994]

Being that it was a clear center hit, and clear that I'm shooting major power factor, it would be nice to see something in the rules regarding such a situation... It wasn't range equipment failure, or failure on shooters part...it was environmental conditions that clearly the shooter or RM could not prevent.....it would be nice to see something favoring the shooter in such a case.....something like...instead of testing popper with calibration gun and ammo, why not shot it with the exact gun and ammo that was just ruled as a miss because it didn't take the popper down, this proving it was an outside factor cause the popper to not fall, not the fault of the shooter....

It's not clear that you were shooting major power factor ammo at the popper. The only rounds at the match we know made power factor, are the ones fired over the chrono -- the others you get credit for as they're likely the same, but we "don't know that." Given how many squib loads I've seen, and how many shooters I've seen with ammo that majorly changes how it sounds from shot to shot, what you're requesting isn't doable....I'm sorry you got hosed by the weather. Unfortunately that sometimes happens -- wind, rain, changes in lighting and contrast, all part of the game....

See? That's part of the misconception. Our OP doesn't need to be shooting major PF ammo because as the popper is supposed to be calibrated prior the start of the match each day, the popper is only supposed to discriminate between 120'ish PF and above.

Anywhoo... Nik and I have been down this road before.

A popper =/= a ballistic pendulum

IMO, the whole USPSA popper calibration prove-yourself-innocent mentality sucks ...

If we had a for real random ammo/chrono check, maybe there wouldn't be such a reliance on poppers to discern PF.

Again, IMO a balky popper = prop malfunction = reshoot

[Croomrider]

On another note, on next stage, watched a guy shooting a .45 shot a KD steel down only to have it bounce off the rubber stop back into upright position, as if it was never shot...what is the ruling on that...it was count as a hit..

It was knocked down, so it was a hit and should be scored. Assuming the RO saw it fall!

Mike

[BillChunn]

One of the ranges around here has 65' tall berms. They will actually pull the wind down onto the range floor. They use forward falling poppers that have a release mechanism. If struck with the correct powered ammunition, they rock back slightly, releasing an adjustable pin that drops down allowing the popper to fall forward.

BC

[StealthyBlagga]

This is a learning opportunity. If you leave a Popper standing and call for a calibration, you put your fate in someone else's hands. I keep shooting until the steel falls unless it is obvious that the steel is not going to fall (multiple solid hits). Even then, I continue to complete the COF, then challenge the target. This is a game where you want to play the percentages.

[Flatland Shooter]

I'm an Open shooter. I'm shooting Major and if I get a solid hit on steel, it should go down. If I sit there and wait on every popper to make sure it don't need a second or third hit, them I'm wasting time.

Unless its a common occurrence at your range, you got hit by a freak circumstance. If its a common occurrence, its time to start pushing the club for some forward falling poppers.

As the local Range Master said, "you can't arbitrate the weather".

Bill

[Travtastik]

I had something like that happen once. Was last shooter on last stage and a bad storm was moving in. Hit the popper and move on and I notice its still up. I double tap it and still won't fall. Rey were all good shots and should have taken it down but the wind was ripping. Ended up just unloading on the damn thing till it fell over. The RO told me all my shots were good but because of the wind I got robbed. It was just a local match so no loss for me but now I always have it in the back of my mind when preparing for a stage/match.

It sucks that it happened at a bigger match.

[JKSNIPER]

We see the steel bouncing effect routinely at rifle matches with .308 hits on steel.

Not uncommon for the "hostage" steel target to get a solid hit and fly around to the other side and hit so hard it completely bounces back into its original position.

RO calls a hit and the shooter moves on.

[Chills1994]

We see the steel bouncing effect routinely at rifle matches with .308 hits on steel.

Not uncommon for the "hostage" steel target to get a solid hit and fly around to the other side and hit so hard it completely bounces back into its original position.

RO calls a hit and the shooter moves on.

A strong magnet ( "a shallow pot magnet") welded to a compression spring which is then welded to the backside of the target might prevent that.

[NoSteel]

Popper scores when it falls. If it didn't fall and the RO hasn't stopped you, your not done. That being said, the RO would get a WTF look on the 2nd round from me.. Just my opinion of course.....

[Sin-ster]

And this (among other situations that tend to bite me in the backside on the regular) is why we need a rule for steel (poppers and plates alike) that's similar to those for paper.

If it can be determined without question that the popper was struck in the calibration zone by the competitor (i.e. painted, now there's a mark, no doubt in the ROs minds that it's the current shooter's hit)... then it's scored as a hit, no calibration or Reshoot required. (Same thing for a plate that gets hit and doesn't fall, which is immediate REF and reshoot.)

If there's doubt, then a calibration is in order. If the popper activates moving targets, or reveals others, then a calibration and a possible reshoot are in order.

Otherwise... WTF is the harm in scoring it as a hit? It saves time, it doesn't give 2nd chances for tanked stages or ruin good runs... Doesn't tempt the Reshoot Gods... And it doesn't ignore Power Factor, either-- as ONLY hits in the calibration zone should count in this regard, and the poppers are SUPPOSED to fall to 120-125 PF loads-- so anyone shooting for score should be able to knock it over.

This type of situation is ESPECIALLY annoying at a Major match, from which your chrono sheet shows 135 PF... Or higher, for you Major shooters.

[Henry625]

I had a similar situation and I raise this question,....

While shooting a course of fire at a local club match, I shoot a popper in the "sweet" spot, it does not fall, I continue shooting the course and at the finish, I ask for a calibration. The R/O gets one of the 9mm guns from the squad, shoots the popper and it falls, I am scored as a miss on the popper.

This is my question, If the load that I am shooting has been chrono'd at 127 P/F, it obviously makes

minor power factor right? What if the gun used in the calibration was a 135 P/F? How is

this fair.

At a higher level match ARE the guns used for calibration calls loaded to the minimum 125 P/F or are they just using some brand of factory ammo that actually might be a higher

power factor?

I have seen this in LEVEL ll matches as well. If you state a minimum P/F, then everything involved in the match should be calibrated to that stated P/F. Poppers are notorious for not being precise, they have a sloppy tolerance an can literally absorb a hit and just

wobble.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Henry625

[ChuckS]

I had a similar situation and I raise this question,....

While shooting a course of fire at a local club match, I shoot a popper in the "sweet" spot, it does not fall, I continue shooting the course and at the finish, I ask for a calibration. The R/O gets one of the 9mm guns from the squad, shoots the popper and it falls, I am scored as a miss on the popper.

This is my question, If the load that I am shooting has been chrono'd at 127 P/F, it obviously makes

minor power factor right? What if the gun used in the calibration was a 135 P/F? How is

this fair.

At a higher level match ARE the guns used for calibration calls loaded to the minimum 125 P/F or are they just using some brand of factory ammo that actually might be a higher

power factor?

I have seen this in LEVEL ll matches as well. If you state a minimum P/F, then everything involved in the match should be calibrated to that stated P/F. Poppers are notorious for not being precise, they have a sloppy tolerance an can literally absorb a hit and just

wobble.

Appendix C1 fo the rulebook covers calibration. Just using "factory" is not procedure.

[Nik Habicht]

I had a similar situation and I raise this question,....

While shooting a course of fire at a local club match, I shoot a popper in the "sweet" spot, it does not fall, I continue shooting the course and at the finish, I ask for a calibration. The R/O gets one of the 9mm guns from the squad, shoots the popper and it falls, I am scored as a miss on the popper.

This is my question, If the load that I am shooting has been chrono'd at 127 P/F, it obviously makes

minor power factor right? What if the gun used in the calibration was a 135 P/F? How is

this fair.

At a higher level match ARE the guns used for calibration calls loaded to the minimum 125 P/F or are they just using some brand of factory ammo that actually might be a higher

power factor?

I have seen this in LEVEL ll matches as well. If you state a minimum P/F, then everything involved in the match should be calibrated to that stated P/F. Poppers are notorious for not being precise, they have a sloppy tolerance an can literally absorb a hit and just

wobble.

Probably depends on the person who is the RM. When I fulfill that role at a level II match, my calibration ammo will make ~ 120 pf.

[kevin c]

Probably depends on the person who is the RM. When I fulfill that role at a level II match, my calibration ammo will make ~ 120 pf.

Our club has a supply of calibration ammo I made that runs 120 to 125 PF in most commonly found Production guns. And when I am MD, I calibrate using the guns that I tested that load in.

As Nik pointed out in another post, the rounds used at the chrono stage are not the rounds used to shoot the stage. Yes, from the same batch of ammo from the shooter (presumably), but I don't know any ammo lot where every single round has exactly the same PF. So some rounds may be high, others low. Some folks will really ride that PF threshold. That can easily mean some individual rounds are below 125 PF, perhaps even by a good amount. If a low powered round hits the popper and it doesn't go down, but does with normal range but more potent calibration ammo, well, that's really on the shooter, isn't it? trying to cut it too close? Best way of avoiding that is to have ammo with a comfortable margin PF wise. No absolute guarantees, of course, but at least you will be putting the odds more into your favor in most of the problematic scenarios (marginal PF ammo; heavy set popper or adverse wind)

Edited August 5, 2013 by kevin c

[Nik Habicht]

While we're on that topic, when I chrono major match ammo, I test ten round from every hundred loaded, and I require that every one of those rounds be at a velocity that exceeds 125 PF. If any round doesn't, that batch of ammo gets relegated to practice....

Sounds like a lot of ammo to chrono, right? I usually put the target out ten to 15 yards, pop a paster on it as an aiming spot, and shoot the lot of ammo for group at the same time.....

That way if there's a standards stage.....