Exception to 10.5.1

[Graham Smith]

We ran across a case during a match that shows that there is an exception to 10.5.1 "Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by a range officer."

The case is when a shooter draws the gun in response to the Standby command rather than waiting for the Start signal. The beep would be considered the "direct command".

The exception to this is in 8.3.4.1 "In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (false start prior to the issuance of the start signal) the range officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

Since there is an exception to 10.5.1, this should be noted in the rules in much the same was as exceptions are noted for other similar rules.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Graham Smith

[sperman]

It is my understanding that between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear" the competitor can handle their firearm at will.

[Poppa Bear]

I disagree in that 8.3.1 (Make Ready) signifies the start of the COF. Once the MR command has been given the competitor is free to handle their gun. The start signal cannot be issued until they assume the proper start position and as already noted 8.3.4.1 covers a false start. So, as long as the other rules in 10.5 are obeyed and they do not sweep themselves or break the 180 they are already authorized to handle their gun without restriction.

[outerlimits]

Which is why you give the MR before a shooter unbags. Seen an Arb once where a shooter dropped his gun while unbagging. MR is the start of the COF.

[EkuJustice]

Agree, the COF begins at make ready and ends at range is clear. The shooter may handle their gun between that time frame. It is also the responsibility of the call range is clear only after the gun is secured in the holster. Example would be a shooter using a race holster that is new to that particular race holster and isn't as smooth at getting it in the holster as people who are more use to them. If the RO calls range is clear the second it hits the holster before its actually holstered it would be hard to DQ a shooter who was still in the process of getting his gun secured because the RO called range is clear too early.

[Chuck Anderson]

Agree, the COF begins at make ready and ends at range is clear. The shooter may handle their gun between that time frame. It is also the responsibility of the call range is clear only after the gun is secured in the holster. Example would be a shooter using a race holster that is new to that particular race holster and isn't as smooth at getting it in the holster as people who are more use to them. If the RO calls range is clear the second it hits the holster before its actually holstered it would be hard to DQ a shooter who was still in the process of getting his gun secured because the RO called range is clear too early.

That exact thing happened to me. Holstered, or thought I did, RO called RIC and the gun hit the dirt. I didn't argue it but they didn't try to DQ me either.

[spanky]

Which is why you give the MR before a shooter unbags. Seen an Arb once where a shooter dropped his gun while unbagging. MR is the start of the COF.

I agree with this. I've heard a lot of "bag it," etc. "Make Ready" is the only time this is acceptable IMO.

[Graham Smith]

Back to the original issue. Are you saying that even after Are You Ready, the shooter is free to draw their gun and fiddle around with it and take a sight picture and anything else they want to do? I always thought that, at that point, you were not supposed to touch your gun again until the Start signal?

[Poppa Bear]

They can touch it, draw it, take sight pictures again. Not getting any response the RO proceeds to Stand By, otherwise they go back to Are You Ready until they no longer get a response other than a positive Yes or Nod.

[twodownzero]

Agree, the COF begins at make ready and ends at range is clear. The shooter may handle their gun between that time frame. It is also the responsibility of the call range is clear only after the gun is secured in the holster. Example would be a shooter using a race holster that is new to that particular race holster and isn't as smooth at getting it in the holster as people who are more use to them. If the RO calls range is clear the second it hits the holster before its actually holstered it would be hard to DQ a shooter who was still in the process of getting his gun secured because the RO called range is clear too early.

Yep, don't give range is clear until the person is done fidgeting and has removed their hands from the gun.

[Graham Smith]

They can touch it, draw it, take sight pictures again. Not getting any response the RO proceeds to Stand By, otherwise they go back to Are You Ready until they no longer get a response other than a positive Yes or Nod.

Hypothetically, Are You Ready is given and the shooter nods. Then Stand By is given and the shooter draws the gun and takes a sight picture and fiddles with the gun and then puts it back. No saying "wait a moment" or anything else. That's OK?

[D.Hayden]

Not a DQ.. but there is a consequence

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun,

a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more

advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur

one procedural penalty.

If the RO can stop and not start the timer, then it's back to "Are you ready?"

If a competitor did it more than once, I'd put him/her down the list, until they were more prepared

Edited May 28, 2013 by D.Hayden

[Poppa Bear]

They would get the one freeby under 8.3.4.1. After that I would assess a procedural per under 10.2.6.

[D.Hayden]

They would get the one freeby under 8.3.4.1. After that I would assess a procedural per under 10.2.6.

Not sure about the freebie there.. seems the procedural could still be given

1st time, it would likely be forgiven

[racerba]

Hypothetically, Are You Ready is given and the shooter nods. Then Stand By is given and the shooter draws the gun and takes a sight picture and fiddles with the gun and then puts it back. No saying "wait a moment" or anything else. That's OK?

It's not a DQ...RO should yell "STOP" and proceed with whatever is appropriate...maybe the shooter DID say "wait a moment" and the RO did not hear...depends on the situation...but not a DQ...

[Graham Smith]

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun,

a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more

advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur

one procedural penalty.

I knew that there was something stuck in my head that said that there was some kind of a consequence for movement after Standby.

[GuildSF4]

Course of fire commands with my comments and how I was trained.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

As it says, this is the start of "the Course of Fire". Competitor may handle the weapon.

8.3.2 “Are You Ready?” – The lack of any negative response from the competitor indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire and is ready to proceed. If the competitor is not ready at the “Are You Ready?” command, he must state “Not Ready”. It is suggested that when the competitor is ready he should assume the required start position to indicate his readiness to the Range Officer.

I wait for the competitor to assume the start position and stop moving or figiting, then i ask "Are You Ready".

8.3.3 “Standby” – This command should be followed by the start signal within 1 to 4 seconds.

8.3.4 “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from “Are You Ready?”.

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

False start is not the same as creeping (the competitor may have heard another timer 'beep', or thought he heard the 'beep').

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer.

This is also used in the event of a false start.

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty.

If the RO is watching the shooter this penalty should be rare, when I see them start moving their hand(s) or body I delay the start signal until they are back in the correct position.

[Nik Habicht]

Back to the original issue. Are you saying that even after Are You Ready, the shooter is free to draw their gun and fiddle around with it and take a sight picture and anything else they want to do? I always thought that, at that point, you were not supposed to touch your gun again until the Start signal?

You say "Are You Ready" and I put my hand on the gun, or take my hand off the XXs, or draw my gun -- those are all non-verbal cues that I'm not ready, right?

Once you've given "Make Ready" the competitor may handle at will, until such time as either the "Stop" command or the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command is given.....

If either of the latter two commands are issued, the shooter is restricted from firing another shot, and may be required to do other things, as appropriate....

[frenchphil]

For me, drawing (safely) at "stand by" is more something like a flase start than an unsafe gun handling.

"Range is clear" is not the command that ends COF.

COF ends when handgun is holstered and hands of the competitor are of the handgun (8.3.7.3).

Edited May 29, 2013 by frenchphil

[D.Hayden]

For me, drawing (safely) at "stand by" is more something like a flase start than an unsafe gun handling.

"Range is clear" is not the command that ends COF.

COF ends when handgun is holstered and hands of the competitor are of the handgun (8.3.7.3).

Next rule down..

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of

fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

[Poppa Bear]

"Range is clear" ends the COF. The gun falling out after RIC, but before it is secured in the holster has saved a few people. I could see an arb if the RO was real slow with RIC and the gun got knocked out though.

[frenchphil]

8.3.8 is is not written like that in the IPSC Handgun RB I've just downloaded (january 2012).

I had a case of a droped gun after it was holstered but just before "range is clear" (due to a broken holster) : didn't call for a dq because gun was dropped after the end of COF.

Edited May 29, 2013 by frenchphil

[Poppa Bear]

That is a difference between the IPSC and the USPSA rulebooks. They both have the same basic stop point in that they both are looking for the hand to come off the gun. IPSC allows for a broken holster so that if the gun should fall out after the hand is removed it is still looked at as if the COF has ended. This also means that a competitor with a race holster can "holster" the gun and fail to lock it in place and be saved from a DQ when it falls out. In USPSA we look for the gun to be secured in the holster after the hand is removed. If the gun falls out after the hand is removed then we have a DQ.

[frenchphil]

Thanks for that clarification between the two RB.

[mactiger]

These are USPSA rules, not IPSC rules. "Range is clear" ends the course of fire in USPSA.

GuildSF4 had the best answer on here, with added emphasis on the last two sentences of 8.3.1: "The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed."

Always run your timer on instant--you are in control, and if the competitor is moving, you simply don't proceed with the range commands, or you ensure that he knows that the start position is, etc. This also plays into 10.2.6, and since the competitor was not moving at the start signal, it's not creeping, either. It's simply a false start.