Dirtychemist Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I've been using WST in .45 for years. Here's the catch: WST slows down in the heat. I actually use more in summer and less in winter. It's not a small thing, either. My partner shoots .40, using the SnS 200gr round-nose (SnS sponsors her). The normal load they suggest with WST is around 4.0gr. We settled on 3.9gr. At the April Indiana Single Stack Sectional, it went 176 in her (slow) 1911. It went 168 in the Limited gun in June. Come July, at the Riley Indiana Sectional on a 90-degree day, with a bullet that was a grain light, it went 163.8. Minor. Absolutely the same setup on the same press and checked again and again The gun's going to the Nationals with an extra two tenths or even more. Just sayin'. Interesting. I will check this out for myself and note it accordingly to see a difference in speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul99354 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) Back in 2011, I tested WST with my 45 ACP loads (winchester brass; WLP primers; 230 gr RN, FMJ Montana Gold bullets, 4.83 gn WST) for temperature sensitivity. I shot between 18 and 20 rounds each at 3 different cartridge temperatures - 32, 70, and 105 deg F. These were shot with a PACT Mark IV chrono. All rounds were randomly sampled from a large batch of about 1000 rounds I previously reloaded.The 32 deg F rounds were cold soaked in my freezer at 0 deg F, then placed in a cooler with ice for two hours - the temperature in the cooler was 32 deg F when the rounds were shot. The hot rounds were warmed in the sun, then placed in a different cooler containing water at 120 deg F - the temperature in cooler was 105 deg F when the rounds were shot. All rounds were loaded into magazines before tempering to minimize the time between when they were removed from the cooler and when they were shot. The following two plots show the measured velocity versus temperature and the variability in velocity versus temperature. Plot V vs Temp for WST.pdf Variability vs T for WST.pdf I saw a slight drop in velocity (about 5%) at 32 F as compared to 70 F; and somewhat less of a drop at 105 F as compared to 70 F. This was not the inverse temperature response that I was expecting. I don't know if these results are typical. About one month later, using an Oehler 35P, I shot three strings of 30 rounds each, all at 80 deg F, each string under a different set of conditions. These were sampled from the same batch as above. The conditions were (1) tilting the muzzle up before each shot to move the powder to the back of the round; (2) pointing the muzzle down before each shot to move the powder to the front of the round; and (3) keeping the barrel relatively level. The average velocity for (1) was 790 fps with an STD of 1.0% and an ES of 4.8%. The average velocity for (2) was 729 fps with an STD of 1.4% and an ES of 6.0%. The average velocity for (3) was 746 fps with an STD of 1.9% and an ES of 9.5%. STD= standard deviation; ES = extreme spread. The position of the powder in the cartridge made a significant difference in both velocity and variability; I pratical implications of this may be to be aware of how the gun is handled at the chrono station. Edited August 31, 2013 by Paul99354 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 WST definitely is Inverse Temp Sensitive, even in 38 short colt. I just can't rely on it for a big match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtychemist Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 WST definitely is Inverse Temp Sensitive, even in 38 short colt. I just can't rely on it for a big match. Faster when its cold, slower when its hot? I bumped mine up to 4.6 and I'm going to test them maybe as soon as this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 WST definitely is Inverse Temp Sensitive, even in 38 short colt. I just can't rely on it for a big match. Faster when its cold, slower when its hot? I bumped mine up to 4.6 and I'm going to test them maybe as soon as this weekend. Yes. And it's not just the temp of the ammo, you have to factor in the ambient temp, the gun temp, humidity, etc... All I can say is with 35 years reloading, and using WST for matches in the late '80's, is it is a real issue. Not insurmountable but frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtychemist Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 WST definitely is Inverse Temp Sensitive, even in 38 short colt. I just can't rely on it for a big match. Faster when its cold, slower when its hot? I bumped mine up to 4.6 and I'm going to test them maybe as soon as this weekend. Yes. And it's not just the temp of the ammo, you have to factor in the ambient temp, the gun temp, humidity, etc...All I can say is with 35 years reloading, and using WST for matches in the late '80's, is it is a real issue. Not insurmountable but frustrating. Interesting . I will have to check this out personally. It gets below 30 here so I'd expect a HUGE difference with 50-80 degree shifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I used VV N-310 for many years in my Bullseye pistol loads. More recently I have switched to WST. It burns almost as clean as N-310, is equally accurate and is half the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstagn Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 What about felt recoil between n310 and WST??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtuns Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Ive heard from a reputable source the Marine Corp bullseye team uses wst for practice. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 All the places I used to use 231/hp38 I now use WST. (different powder charge weights!!!!!) i.e not interchangeable just have changed over to WST as it seems more efficient, cleaner etc. I look at it as the modern replacement of 231/hp38. I look at univ. clays as the modern replacement of unique. again not grain for grain replacement just a newer replacement that is just as versatile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughingdog Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 4.2gr WST with 230gr Precision or Bear Creek black bullet at 1.210. 170pf out of my Kimber and STI 45's. Soft, clean, accurate Yeah, I did that same recipe and got a 155PF out of my Springfield 1911 (full sized) this afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBQDawg Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) 4.2gr WST with 230gr Precision or Bear Creek black bullet at 1.210. 170pf out of my Kimber and STI 45's. Soft, clean, accurate Yeah, I did that same recipe and got a 155PF out of my Springfield 1911 (full sized) this afternoon. I use 230gr S&S .45acp coated bullets with 4.2 gr WST at 1.250 OAL and easily get 169-170 PF out of my Guncrafter No Name Government Model 1911. Edited November 11, 2013 by BBQDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I had been running 4.4gr WST with 230gr Zeros @ 1.240 OAL. At a sectional match this spring it chronoed at 169 in my 5" 1911. I checked it again before a state match, and the same load chronoed at 154! ugh Loaded a batch at 4.7gr for the match, chroned at around 175. 4.6 would have been about right. I've run WST for a couple of years now. I dont like how the drops are inconsistent in my LNL. I'm testing loads for W231 and may go back to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I had been running 4.4gr WST with 230gr Zeros @ 1.240 OAL. At a sectional match this spring it chronoed at 169 in my 5" 1911. I checked it again before a state match, and the same load chronoed at 154! ugh Loaded a batch at 4.7gr for the match, chroned at around 175. 4.6 would have been about right. I've run WST for a couple of years now. I dont like how the drops are inconsistent in my LNL. I'm testing loads for W231 and may go back to it. Something is wrong. I had zero issues in my LNL while I had it (standard metering insert, not the small one). In my 650 I get it dialed in and I never have to touch it again until I change loads. Doesn't matter whether the measure is full or almost empty, it's always spot on when I weigh a charge. I will say that the 1st charge in a session tends to be a tad heavy from settling with loading brass, bullets, etc. but after that 1st throw, it's rock solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yeah, I've read that a lot. I've had my LNL for about 3-4 yrs now I guess. WST is a light flake powder, and it really seems to matter how it settles as to whether a charge is a little heavy or light. By heavy, I've seen it > .6gr. I've tried everything (tapping rotor, run multiple cases through by hand and by the press, powder baffle, etc). If I stop during reloading (e.g. SWAMBO needs me upstairs) and I leave the ram down (meaning the insert is pointed up, allowing powder being packed into it), I can guarantee the drop will be heavy. Same for when I have to pause to load primers. Happens less when I leave the ram up/insert pointed down. The standard insert is for rifles, and is for drops 5+ gr and above. The pistol insert is the smaller one, and is needed for <5gr drops. The pistol insert is what I have been using since almost day one. Ball powders like W231 meter much more consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yea I thought I needed to buy the pistol insert when I bought the press. But WST was my primary powder (9mm lead, .40 and .45) and it ran sooooo good I never bought the pistol insert. I think you have static or oil in the works. I know I cleaned mine just like their video with the Hornady One Shot Cleaner and Dry Lube once. Key word being once. Powder stuck to everything like it was motor oil. After that WST metered like water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Surprised you never had issued with the standard insert. I did initially, didn't even know there was a pistol insert/rotor available/recommended. I had a miserable time getting consistent drops (with W231 at the time I think) using the standard rotor. Once I switched, life was good. No static that I am aware of, at least not that I can tell. Definitely no oil. I don't lube the rotor or the PTX, so no oil contamination buildup to worry about. I just broke it down last night to clean it up getting ready to work on W231 loads, no major buildup anyway to speak of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h8dirt Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I used VV N-310 for many years in my Bullseye pistol loads. More recently I have switched to WST. It burns almost as clean as N-310, is equally accurate and is half the price. +1 what TonyT says. And, it works great in my Dillion 550B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBQDawg Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I recently switched to S&S's coated 200 gr SWC. With 4.8 gr WST @ 1.245 OAL it is extremely accurate. Don't have my log book with me as to particulars, but know it gave me 169-170 Power Factor. Only thing was I had also developed a load with 4.2 gr Clays that was almost as accurate that appeared to have less felt recoil so prefer it. Then tried some VV N320 that was the most accurate and least felt recoil of the bunch with 5.4 gr @ 1.242 OAL so that is my load now for IPSC Single Stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughingdog Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 4.2gr WST with 230gr Precision or Bear Creek black bullet at 1.210. 170pf out of my Kimber and STI 45's. Soft, clean, accurate Yeah, I did that same recipe and got a 155PF out of my Springfield 1911 (full sized) this afternoon. I use 230gr S&S .45acp coated bullets with 4.2 gr WST at 1.250 OAL and easily get 169-170 PF out of my Guncrafter No Name Government Model 1911. I'm better with numbers than putting thoughts into sentences sometimes. The simple "5-inch barrel 1911" wasn't coming to me. Not sure why my data comes up so much lower than yours, unless the WST just swings a lot from lot to lot. Oddly enough, those 200g loads should have put me up around 860-800fps according to the Hodgdon site's data. Here's all my .45acp WST chrono data -- all at 67F bullet powder gun Vel low Vel avg PF avg 200g plated bullet 4.5gWST 5" 1911 714 723 144500 200g plated 4.7gWST 5" 1911 768 793 158533 230g plated 4.2gWST 5" 1911 643 676 155400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 4.2gr WST with 230gr Precision or Bear Creek black bullet at 1.210. 170pf out of my Kimber and STI 45's. Soft, clean, accurate Yeah, I did that same recipe and got a 155PF out of my Springfield 1911 (full sized) this afternoon. I use 230gr S&S .45acp coated bullets with 4.2 gr WST at 1.250 OAL and easily get 169-170 PF out of my Guncrafter No Name Government Model 1911. I'm better with numbers than putting thoughts into sentences sometimes. The simple "5-inch barrel 1911" wasn't coming to me. Not sure why my data comes up so much lower than yours, unless the WST just swings a lot from lot to lot. Oddly enough, those 200g loads should have put me up around 860-800fps according to the Hodgdon site's data. Here's all my .45acp WST chrono data -- all at 67F bullet powder gun Vel low Vel avg PF avg 200g plated bullet 4.5gWST 5" 1911 714 723 144500 200g plated 4.7gWST 5" 1911 768 793 158533 230g plated 4.2gWST 5" 1911 643 676 155400 May be that you are shooting plated bullets and most everyone else is shooting lead or moly lead. Gererally jacketed and plated will be slower with the same powder charge. Probably because there is more friction with them verses lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshF Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Anyone had any luck with using WST to make factory type velocities? I've been playing with WST and while I think it feels great at 4.5-4.7gr that makes major in my G21 and 1911 I'm finding I have to go over book to get to 800fps with the 230gr Precision Delta's I got loaded to 1.250OAL. Currently I'm at 5.0gr and hitting 770's for avg. I'm shooting for 800fps as my goal and would really like to stay with the WST powder. Anyone loading WST that hot or hotter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyokid Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Excited to try the WST now! Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodemonkey Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 You want to see smoke? Try Titegroup. All uncoated lead bullets smoke, but Titegroup takes it to a level that has to be seen to comprehend. WST is pretty low smoke, maybe not THE lowest, but it's in the low end of the spectrum. I'll second that. Titegroup + Moly = Old Western Movie. My goodness that stuff smokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethor Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Excited to try the WST now! Thanks guys! Down to my last 200 rds or so of 231 so I will be cracking open my WST this weekend, exciting stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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