"Max. distance 50mm from torso"

[BerettaRacer]

Well if thats the gauge, using the overlay between the body and the mid point of the vertical rise of the mag, my staggered/offset mag pouches will just pass as is, but I should pull them in a little to be safe. Easier now than trying to re-shim at a match, that or just have another double cheeseburger for lunch.

[Soligen]

I still would like one more point of clarification. The problem is the definition of CENTER. I just got my Blade Tech DOH holster today for my CZ 85 - finally away from that generic cheapie holster I bought before I ever shot IPSC.

I had originally assumed that the CENTER meant a point actually inside (the 3D center) of the grip. but I see no way to measure this. Now I'm thiking it is meaning the middle of the grip, but from a point on the surface of the grip facing the body. I made a 50 mm stick and if I place one end on the center of the grip panel, I can wedge it against my body and it does not fall out (even with consiferable movement). Am I OK?

I have no idea how to measure if I were to use the my first interpretation of CENTER (the 3D center). Also, with my first interpretation, I'm not sure I could get my new holster legal without serious modification (not what I was planning). Please tell me I'm good to go!!!! (Well, only if it's true.)

BerrettaRacer, what mag pouches are you using? I need to upgrade those too sometime.

Thanks!

[BerettaRacer]

I use 3 Fobus double kydex mag pouches.

[cz75ipsc]

From the top slide rails or the bottom of the trigger guard?

CENTER meant a point actually inside (the 3D center)

Which is it? Vince?

[Vince Pinto]

The applicable rule is:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's body, a Range Officer may check compliance by measuring the closest distance between the competitor’s torso and the center of the longest dimension of the handgun grip and/or any reloading devices.

Using the diagram in Appendix F3 of the Handgun Rulebook, and assuming the shorter side of your scoring overlay is 50mm wide, the RO would slide the scoring overlay from under your armpit downwards towards your belt. Provided there was at least some contact with the magazine or gun grip and the outside edge of the scoring overlay, you're good to go.

However if the gap was so large that there is no contact with the scoring overlay, you might be asked to make an adjustment.

Having said all that, this is not an exact science, and people have different shaped bodies. The intention of the rule is essentially to avoid blatant abuses, and it alludes to the days when "concealability" was an even greater issue than it is today.

[spook]

I brought this one back from the dead.

I just got my BladeTech DOH for my G17. I have adjusted the holster to have the forward cant and I wear it behind the hipbone.

When I saw how it positioned my Glock, I noticed it is very close to meet IPSC holster criteria.

With the forward cant, it's juuust behind the line of the hipbone. And there is just the tiniest part of the backstrap that rises above the top of the belt. Close, but these criteria are met.

But, when looking at the magwell part of the grip, it is way over 50mm from my torso. So that made me wonder, how the 50mm rule was measured. I looked in the rulebook, found the rule:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's body, a Range Officer may check compliance by measuring the closest distance between the competitor’s torso and the center of the longest dimension of the handgun grip and/or any reloading devices.

I did a search on "longest dimension" and found this thread.

Now I still don't know which part is measured. Vince's last post said something about measuring at the line you can draw from under the armpit, but that doesn't sound very scientific.

My question: what exactly is the center of the longest dimension?

[spook]

Found an answer to my question @ Global Village:

The distance to check is from the middle (from magwell to beavertail) of the backstrap, to the closest point of the torso.

If you registered to IPSC Global village:

Click here for picture

Edited January 15, 2008 by spook

[Flexmoney]

While I would guess that is what is meant by "longest dimension", that is not what is says. Perhaps it should read backstrap?

While we are probably just splitting hairs...

The picture that Vince supplied (Tangfolio) shows the longest dimension of the backstrap, not necessarily the "grip"...as the rule reads.

The second picture (Glock with Tru-grip, used by Vince/IPSC to define what is legal for "grip" tape) shows that the "longest dimension may not be the back strap. And, the center of that measurement could be in a different place. (perhaps the inside panel as opposed to the back strap...which would make a difference)

[bgary]

Note that the IPSC rule and the USPSA rule are not the same (and the IPSC rule will be the only one discussed on the Global Village)

In the 2008 USPSA rulebook, the rule says

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s

handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the

measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

— perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

— from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the

pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any

reloading device.

5.2.5.1 These measurements may be taken with the equipment as worn

or removed (see App. E2).

There is a set of photos in Appendix E2 (page 80) that illustrates how the measurement will be taken. Note that it is *not* to the shooter's torso, but to the inside of the belt.

B

[spook]

Flex, the "longest dimension" is definately a vague term. As is "the center" of the longest dimention. I was thinking along the lines (no pun) of your picture. I can even imagine the longest dimension of the grip being the blue line in your Glock pic, but running from the inside left side (near the slide stop) to the outside right side (at the funnel), or vice versa. That would make the determination of the middle more of a geometry question.

As an IPSC-shooter, I must say I find the USPSA rules a lot easier to understand. I also think that measuring to the belt instead of to the torso makes things easier (and less dependent of the shooter's build = more objective).

Thanks.

[Skywalker]

For me, that was pretty easy to understand, but then, maybe I'm biased.

The grip: it's basically an axial symmetric cylinder, squeezed on its sides.

As such, the longest dimension is definitely along the symmetry axis: it's that imaginary line running through the middle of the inside hollow of your grip, from magwell to slide.

The middle of this longest dimension is where you should measure distance from torso.

[spook]

For me, that was pretty easy to understand, but then, maybe I'm biased.

The grip: it's basically an axial symmetric cylinder, squeezed on its sides.

As such, the longest dimension is definitely along the symmetry axis: it's that imaginary line running through the middle of the inside hollow of your grip, from magwell to slide.

The middle of this longest dimension is where you should measure distance from torso.

That is quite easy to understand, but measuring from the inside of the magwell tot he torso is not that easy, is it?

[CAB33]

If you measure like in the picture of the new rule book, the new Bladetech DOH is 2.1" on my Tanfoglio Limited.

[spook]

If you measure like in the picture of the new rule book, the new Bladetech DOH is 2.1" on my Tanfoglio Limited.

Is that with the gun in forward cant?

[Skywalker]

That is quite easy to understand, but measuring from the inside of the magwell to the torso is not that easy, is it?

I keep forgetting you're not used to the Force ...

Now, seriously, the rule reads:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's body, a Range Officer may check compliance by measuring the closest distance between the competitor’s torso and the center of the longest dimension of the handgun grip and/or any reloading devices.

then, did you also think about starting measuring from the inside centre of a competitor's torso?

The rule says the "closest" distance, both from torso and grip, thus if you accept measuring from the external circumference of your torso, you would accept as well measuring from the external circumference of the gun grip.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Skywalker

[No.343]

What about magazines in mag holders? What about us fat guys whose gut pushes magazines out almost parallel to the ground? Do you measure at the mag holder or the base of the magazine?

[CAB33]

If you measure like in the picture of the new rule book, the new Bladetech DOH is 2.1" on my Tanfoglio Limited.

Is that with the gun in forward cant?

No, that is straight up and down.

When I got the holster I called them and asked if I can get the old belt attachment and they said they don't make it anymore.

[MEC]

Did anyone scan up to the top of the page at the IPSC Global Village link that spook referenced? Vince posted a picture that references a bad example of a holstered pistol.

I didn't even notice the pistol at first.

[spook]

That is quite easy to understand, but measuring from the inside of the magwell to the torso is not that easy, is it?

I keep forgetting you're not used to the Force ...

Now, seriously, the rule reads:

5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's body, a Range Officer may check compliance by measuring the closest distance between the competitor’s torso and the center of the longest dimension of the handgun grip and/or any reloading devices.

then, did you also think about starting measuring from the inside centre of a competitor's torso?

The rule says the "closest" distance, both from torso and grip, thus if you accept measuring from the external circumference of your torso, you would accept as well measuring from the external circumference of the gun grip.

I'm just glad it doesn't say "longest dimension of the competitor's body" or I would have to wear my holster up front

[spook]

If you measure like in the picture of the new rule book, the new Bladetech DOH is 2.1" on my Tanfoglio Limited.

Is that with the gun in forward cant?

No, that is straight up and down.

When I got the holster I called them and asked if I can get the old belt attachment and they said they don't make it anymore.

That's strange, I got my holster last week and I got it with the 3-way adjustable attachment.

Edited January 16, 2008 by spook