What Constitutes a new Shooting Position?

[38SuperDub]

Having an intellectual argument with a couple folks - what constitutes a new shooting position? Is 1 step to the left considered a new position?

Is this 1 or 2 positions?

[beltjones]

It looks like from the back left corner you can engage 3 or 4 targets, from the back right you can engage the same 3 or 4 plus another one or two. And obviously from all the way into the port you can see all of them. Thus, you're not REQUIRED to shoot more than 8 from any one location or view. It looks legal to me.

[spanky]

1.2.1.3 Long Courses in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construc- tion must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

[38SuperDub]

Good job reciting the rule book - now answer the main question - what constitutes a new position?

(I'd tell that to Spanky to his face - so its OK)

Edited May 16, 2013 by bsdubois00

[Poppa Bear]

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to

complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design

and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from

any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all

targets in the course of fire from any single location or view

[beltjones]

1.2.1.3 Long Courses in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construc- tion must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

Yeah, for the thought exercise you would have to assume this is a shooting area that's part of a larger stage.

[Poppa Bear]

Good job reciting the rule book - now answer the main question - what constitutes a new position?

(I'd tell that to Spanky to his face - so its OK)

If you have ONE target that cannot be taken through the port, or through the use of No Shoots is obscured so that the shooter has to move to engage all targets it would be legal. As it is the ability to shoot everything without having to move is what makes it illegal.

[Sarge]

One step constitutes a new position. But that stage is only one position.

[38SuperDub]

OK EVERYONE - LETS READ FOR A SECOND!!!!

Is this 1 or 2 positions?

I don't care about the stage being illegal for ANY other reasons - I'm trying to determine if 1 step is considered a new shooting position and just drew that up quick as an example. I could easily throw another target somewhere else and make it wehre not all targets are through the port - so its 18 rounds vs 16 - thats not the argument - try to read the initial post and comment on the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A NEW SHOOTING POSITION"

[beltjones]

One step constitutes a new position. But that stage is only one position.

Wrong. There are multiple steps possible.

It looks like from the back left corner you can engage 3 or 4 targets, from the back right you can engage the same 3 or 4 plus another one or two. And obviously from all the way into the port you can see all of them. Thus, you're not REQUIRED to shoot more than 8 from any one location or view. It looks legal to me.

[Poppa Bear]

A view is a lean. Ie. the feet stay in one place but the upper body moves to change the point of view. Typical for a barricade.

A position is one step in any direction to change the point of view.

[Sarge]

Sorry that port is one position. Looks like you can stand right in the middle and hose away.

[Poppa Bear]

One step constitutes a new position. But that stage is only one position.

Wrong. There are multiple steps possible.

It looks like from the back left corner you can engage 3 or 4 targets, from the back right you can engage the same 3 or 4 plus another one or two. And obviously from all the way into the port you can see all of them. Thus, you're not REQUIRED to shoot more than 8 from any one location or view. It looks legal to me.

A key element to 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 is nor allow a competitor

[beltjones]

Sorry that port is one position. Looks like you can stand right in the middle and hose away.

Yes, we've already covered that the point is not to discuss the rule that all targets on a stage can't be available from a single location. It has already been stipulated that there are other targets on the course of fire that are not pictured.

[Sarge]

Where is the start position? If the start position is in a place where a better shooter might start shooting on the way up or whatever then sure it's multiple views/positions. But if the start is right where you can see it all then there is a problem.

[beltjones]

One step constitutes a new position. But that stage is only one position.

Wrong. There are multiple steps possible.

It looks like from the back left corner you can engage 3 or 4 targets, from the back right you can engage the same 3 or 4 plus another one or two. And obviously from all the way into the port you can see all of them. Thus, you're not REQUIRED to shoot more than 8 from any one location or view. It looks legal to me.

A key element to 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 is nor allow a competitor

Stipulated, dude. Stipulated.

For the sake of the discussion, as many have said, you have to assume there are other targets on the stage that aren't visible, perhaps from an "Area B" or something (and assuming this is Area A or whatever).

[Sarge]

OK EVERYONE - LETS READ FOR A SECOND!!!!

Is this 1 or 2 positions?

I don't care about the stage being illegal for ANY other reasons - I'm trying to determine if 1 step is considered a new shooting position and just drew that up quick as an example. I could easily throw another target somewhere else and make it wehre not all targets are through the port - so its 18 rounds vs 16 - thats not the argument - try to read the initial post and comment on the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A NEW SHOOTING POSITION"

Damn! easy to see how you end up in time outs. LOL You should know by now that on this forum if you ask a question you will not only get 100 different answers but you will also get bombarded with unsolicited questions and advice. i.e. Can I make major with XXX powder? answers, yes, but why would you want to? Probably, but YYY powder is better. Yes, but it's expensive. No you can't but I have never tried it.

So, looking at the picture it looks like one position to me. BUT, Are those regulation fault lines? Is the port built to accommodate short and tall shooters equally? Shooting all head shots is a bad idea because the targets will need changed out a lot. If it rains make sure to leave room between targets to put bags on them.

What was the question again?

[Poppa Bear]

Stipulating that it is part of a larger stage you could get away with it at a level 1 just because it does not require NROI approval.

I still would not do it because allowing all targets to be shot from one position is bad stage design. Part of a larger stage or not this is ONE position.

[Sarge]

One step constitutes a new position. But that stage is only one position.

Wrong. There are multiple steps possible.

It looks like from the back left corner you can engage 3 or 4 targets, from the back right you can engage the same 3 or 4 plus another one or two. And obviously from all the way into the port you can see all of them. Thus, you're not REQUIRED to shoot more than 8 from any one location or view. It looks legal to me.

A key element to 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 is nor allow a competitor

Stipulated, dude. Stipulated.

For the sake of the discussion, as many have said, you have to assume there are other targets on the stage that aren't visible, perhaps from an "Area B" or something (and assuming this is Area A or whatever).

I don't see how we can assume anything! The OP has made it very clear that all he wants to know about is that port and those targets right?

[justaute]

First, the subject illustration by itself does not yield sufficient context. I can't tell whether I would be able to shoot around the walls.

Second, if one assumes the only location or view with/from which to engage all those targets is through that single port, then the set-up is illegal IMO.

[JAFO]

I'd say one position. If you had one NoShoot or a barrel stack to obscure the view, or two ports instead of one, I'd say it was two positions.

The statement that a lean is considered a different view is correct when a lean is required to see around something. Before the lean, there were things you couldn't view. Taking one step to the left or right in this case doesn't really change your view, since there is nothing obstructing it to begin with.

[Nik Habicht]

OK EVERYONE - LETS READ FOR A SECOND!!!!

Is this 1 or 2 positions?

I don't care about the stage being illegal for ANY other reasons - I'm trying to determine if 1 step is considered a new shooting position and just drew that up quick as an example. I could easily throw another target somewhere else and make it wehre not all targets are through the port - so its 18 rounds vs 16 - thats not the argument - try to read the initial post and comment on the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A NEW SHOOTING POSITION"

If the start position was in the back left corner, the distance to the port was significant enough, and the targets on the right were wide open, so that shooting them on the move into the position was a viable option I might let that slide at a level 1.....

Other than that -- nope, single position, better require one per target only....

[Poppa Bear]

Thank you Nik for pointing out the one shot option. It is to easy to get stuck in the two shots per target mindset and see this as 16 rounds when it is very legal as a 8 round stage.

[38SuperDub]

OK EVERYONE - LETS READ FOR A SECOND!!!!

Is this 1 or 2 positions?

I don't care about the stage being illegal for ANY other reasons - I'm trying to determine if 1 step is considered a new shooting position and just drew that up quick as an example. I could easily throw another target somewhere else and make it wehre not all targets are through the port - so its 18 rounds vs 16 - thats not the argument - try to read the initial post and comment on the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A NEW SHOOTING POSITION"

If the start position was in the back left corner, the distance to the port was significant enough, and the targets on the right were wide open, so that shooting them on the move into the position was a viable option I might let that slide at a level 1.....

Other than that -- nope, single position, better require one per target only....

So I'm a tad lost. You're saying that if the start position is the far corner and you can see 4 targets that this is indeed 2 positions. The rule book doesn't say more than 8 shots from one location / view is allowed in level 1 so it's either two positions or not.

I actually think it could go both ways. But what constitutes a new position is still the question.

[beltjones]

Thank you Nik for pointing out the one shot option. It is to easy to get stuck in the two shots per target mindset and see this as 16 rounds when it is very legal as a 8 round stage.

The point of the thread is what constitutes a location or view. Does imagining it as 1 shot per target help you determine whether this can be considered one location or view?