spanky Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) This was the subject of a significant discussion at a recent match and I figured I'd pose the question as a squad mate and not a staff member. The shooter is moving between two shooting positions. There are no targets that can be engaged between the two positions. He's completing the reload and, as he seats the mag, a shot goes off. Before the RO can get "STOP" out the shooter is into the next shooting position and the gun triples (or maybe doubles followed by what would have been a second but is a third intentional shot). RO stop him, calls over the RM and the RM issues a DQ for AD. The shooter was going to arbitrate based on the fact that his finger was not on the trigger and, as evidenced by the triple at the next shooting position, his gun is obviously broken. Arguments made during the discussion between spectators, match staff, shooters, etc were that since he did not press the trigger then he did not AD and should be DQd. Thoughts? As a note, the DQ stood and the shooter chose not to arbitrate. I didn't speak to him as to what specifically swayed his decision but when I gave my input he seemed to still want to arb. Edited May 7, 2013 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 DQ under 10.4.3. The finger doesn't need to be in the trigger guard for a shot to occur. 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7 ETA: There is no broken gun alibi. If his broken gun caused the AD, it is still on him, and still a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 can you say with certainty that the shooter did not press the trigger? the rules (10.4.3) clearly state if the guns fires a shot during a reload, its a DQ. the subsequent full auto-fire is another matter altogether. Both RO's on that stage as well as other competitors clearly said and heard Stop before the shooter went into the port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 can you say with certainty that the shooter did not press the trigger? the rules (10.4.3) clearly state if the guns fires a shot during a reload, its a DQ. the subsequent full auto-fire is another matter altogether. Both RO's on that stage as well as other competitors clearly said and heard Stop before the shooter went into the port.No one can say for sure but the shooter and the RO but I don't think that's even relevant (which is part of my argument). I think you're right on the "stop" call. It was just that the shooter didn't react to it until that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaosshooter00 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I'm surprised it went to discussion at all. AD=DQ, gun failures don't make you any less responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 i would call it a DQ it doesnt matter if the gun malfunctions or not an AD is an AD. If i had been the RO i would have called the same. the gun being broken isnt the issue other than the fact that the gun has become unsafe period. the triple or double would not be a DQ but the AD yes that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I'm surprised it went to discussion at all. AD=DQ, gun failures don't make you any less responsible. +1 ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I'm surprised it went to discussion at all. AD=DQ, gun failures don't make you any less responsible. +1 ^ +2. I would think that if that gun is firing without pressing the trigger, I would want that shooter and that firearm off the course at that time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148303&page=2 A post from Jay Worden explaining that the broken gun exemption disappeared in 2008. #27 Edited May 7, 2013 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I have personally been involved in this exact thing happening twice. I was ROing a shooter who inserted a mag on a reload and the gun went off. The trigger bow was new and had not been properly fitted. AD= DQ. I was ROing a shooter who was having major gun problems his hammer was following and he could not fire. He kept racking until finally it followed hard enough to fire. Should have been a DQ but he was mistakenly allowed to continue. The example posed by Spanky is pretty cut and dried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Had a buddy do the same thing,new trigger in 2011 gun reload bang,,,DQ-- He says he knew his finger was not on the trigger.we never got the gun to do it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Had a shooter with a slide that failed to go fully into battery. Smacked the back of the slide and the extended pin which had broken got stuck in the channel so it hit the primer hard enough to make the gun go bang. First shooter on the first stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 arb committees just love these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fcernese Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 Had a shooter with a slide that failed to go fully into battery. Smacked the back of the slide and the extended pin which had broken got stuck in the channel so it hit the primer hard enough to make the gun go bang. First shooter on the first stage. Did the slide come back and hit his hand after it fired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 Had a shooter with a slide that failed to go fully into battery. Smacked the back of the slide and the extended pin which had broken got stuck in the channel so it hit the primer hard enough to make the gun go bang. First shooter on the first stage. Did the slide come back and hit his hand after it fired? No, it tried but the slide was still being held forward by the hand slapping the back. Slides do not have a lot of power behind them until they start to build momentum after unlocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 AD no matter the cause is a DQ. Jay taught that in class. The circumstances may suck...but is what it is. And if the gun is doubling I'd rather not have it on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 DQ under 10.4.3. The finger doesn't need to be in the trigger guard for a shot to occur. 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7 ETA: There is no broken gun alibi. If his broken gun caused the AD, it is still on him, and still a DQ. All of this plus 10.4.6 Iron clad DQ any way you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbc98c Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 You could deem this as burst mode also (5.1.11), but 10.4.6 is very straightforward. If the gun goes off during reload, its a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 There is a difference in a gun that doubles and a gun that offers "burst and/or fully automatic operation" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbc98c Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 You are correct. I missed the word Offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Yes there is. One is designed to do so (G18 ) and one does it due to mechanical failure. End result still the same. I agree to " the letter " of the rule, but in this case splitting hairs is hyperbole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbc98c Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Per the ruling, it is considered an unsafe firearm and should be removed from the competition until fixed, but it doesn't fall under 5.1.1, which is what sperman was saying. But, regardless, this is a DQ. so, removal of the firearm wouldn't be a primary concern. If this got arbitrated, I would hope it would lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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