Spectator stopping a shooter

[gng4life]

If you see an unsafe action at a match I am runnning, please do what you did again.

Superior to any ruleset is safety. Sure, some people may chastize you, as some have already done, but safe is better than silent. After that, let the rulebook and RM sort it out appropriately.

+1

[spanky]

Appears a number of you never were in/saw any IHMSA matches.

IHMSA rules do not apply to USPSA, at the speed we move and shoot IHMSA legal shooting positions are unsafe for USPSA.

If he doesn't sweep himself then who are you to determine whether the guy is "unsafe" shooting supine?

Even disregarding my opinion that stopping supine shouldn't even legally be considered an FA, I'd like to point quickly at 2.3.1.1 d.

2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a

Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in

order to maintain competitive equity.

a. Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit

competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe

condition or to prohibit exploit of an unintended course loop-

hole in order to circumvent a course requirement and/or gain

unfair competitive advantage.

b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a

means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a

course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the cor-

ner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in

Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit

competitor movement must do so using target placement,

vision barriers and/or physical barriers.

c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and ( , an area of the range floor may be

declared off limits. The area must be clearly delineated with

Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.3). Crossing an Off Limits Line is

considered a Forbidden Action.

d. Any Forbidden Action or Off Limits Area must be specified in

the Written Stage Briefing (See Rules 2.3.3 and 3.2.3).

Edited May 7, 2013 by spanky

[JayWord]

Hmm,

I find situations like this interesting. Shooting supine was very common in the past and is allowed under our rules if done safely. In point of fact it was commonly done when 50 yards standards were shot at the Nationals.

If the shooter sweep himself while going into that position then a DQ was warranted. The forbidden action is not.

Jay

[Gary Stevens]

Hmm,

I find situations like this interesting. Shooting supine was very common in the past and is allowed under our rules if done safely. In point of fact it was commonly done when 50 yards standards were shot at the Nationals.

If the shooter sweep himself while going into that position then a DQ was warranted. The forbidden action is not.

Jay

What Jay said. Very common shooting position on long range shots. Needs to be done safely, like everything we do, but nothing prohibits it that I am aware of.

[Flexmoney]

You two sound new. LOL

(I agree with you, but we do have this goofy FA thing in the book I'm interested in your perspective. ?)

2.3.1 Match Officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire,

Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition or to prohibit exploit of an unintended course loophole in order to circumvent a course requirement and/or gain unfair competitive advantage.

That gives the Match Staff lots of freedom. Then again,

b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire

And then,

2.1.1 Physical Construction – Safety considerations in the design, physical construction, and stated requirements for any course of fire are the responsibility of the host organization subject to the approval of the Range Master. Reasonable effort must be made to prevent injury to competitors, officials and spectators during the match. Course design should prevent inadvertent unsafe actions wherever possible. Consideration must be given to the operation of any course of fire to provide suitable access for officials supervising the competitors.

and,

1.1.1 Safety – USPSA matches must be designed, constructed and conducted with due consideration to safety.

[Flexmoney]

Shooting supine was very common in the past and is allowed under our rules if done safely.

I know I have fallen on my butt and shot "supine". Our local Match Director did so at the last match. I saw one top shoot do so purposely at a Nationals in Tulsa...on a field course. I tried to get the Front Sight photog to capture that moment, but he didn't get the coolness and the shooter wasn't yet known to him.

[JKSNIPER]

Along the same lines I had a good friend show up to a range where an entire class of shooters was on their glass.

He was only out of his car for less than a minute when he yelled at the top of his lungs "Cease Fire!"

The instructors were looking at him like he "was growing a **** out of his forehead" until they looked where he was pointing.

The range was very close to a residential neighborhood and 2 kids had ridden their bikes up the back side of the berm and were sitting on top of the berm. No one saw this because they were all "inside their glass" looking through their scopes at the targets and the FOV of a scoped rifle does not include the top of the berm.

Every shooter has the obligation to yell "Stop!" if they see an unsafe action that could potentially result in the injury/death of a competitor or spectator.

[Croomrider]

Every shooter has the obligation to yell "Stop!" if they see an unsafe action that could potentially result in the injury/death of a competitor or spectator.

Yep, I've had to do something similar a few times! At least two of which were at national championships in another shooting sport.

Mike

[spanky]

Shooting supine was very common in the past and is allowed under our rules if done safely.

I know I have fallen on my butt and shot "supine". Our local Match Director did so at the last match. I saw one top shoot do so purposely at a Nationals in Tulsa...on a field course. I tried to get the Front Sight photog to capture that moment, but he didn't get the coolness and the shooter wasn't yet known to him.

What kinda photog doesn't shoot first and ask questions later?

Edited May 14, 2013 by Flexmoney
typo

[Unregistered]

Vince Pinto is of the opinion that only officials can ever call stop, whether the call was due to safety or other concerns. When I pointed out that there may be a case where someone ventures onto the top of the berms, and that a "STOP" command would be justified, Pinto brushed it off by saying that such things never happened, nor can I prove they did. So you cannot be telling the truth, JKSNIPER!

You can probably find that thread on the Global Village still. I got banned as a result of the discussion on there, so I cannot provide a link.

[Croomrider]

Vince Pinto is of the opinion that only officials can ever call stop, whether the call was due to safety or other concerns. When I pointed out that there may be a case where someone ventures onto the top of the berms, and that a "STOP" command would be justified, Pinto brushed it off by saying that such things never happened, nor can I prove they did. So you cannot be telling the truth, JKSNIPER!

Yes it does happen. One of the instances I referred to was when some kids came hiking over a wooded hill that was also the backstop. There were probably 30 people shooting in that general direction and the bullets could have easily skipped or ricocheted up to where they were. It was extremely dangerous and would have been irresponsible to do anything other than immediately holler cease fire. Anyone who cannot envision something like this happening is fairly naive!

Mike

[JKSNIPER]

My buddy was shocked to see the kids up on there and no one had spotted them until he yelled and pointed them out.

This was at school full of LE snipers and instructors who were very experienced. No one thought to look at the top of the berm once stuff was underway and my buddy had the benefit of "big picture" view just arriving there. It was his first time there and he was sort of looking at everything otherwise he said he might have missed it himself.

I have been taught at various schools and training sessions that everyone is a safety officer and anyone at any time may call a cease fire if they observe an unsafe act or condition.

[GuildSF4]

I've had people see us shooting and still drive their quads past us to the berm and drive around it (kind of a pit where a lot of folks shoot.) Had this happen on two different ranges... stopped the shooting til they left. Do people think the bullets are going to stop for them?

[MarkCO]

Vince Pinto is of the opinion that only officials can ever call stop, whether the call was due to safety or other concerns.

That is ridiculous and ignorant! Anything else I have to say would probably be in violation of forum rules.

[partyboy424]

As much as I love this sport, some people are taking this way too seriously. The shooters were made clear that this was prohibited. Most likely because the owners of the range didn't want to make the news and get shut down because someone decided to blow his toes off... It's one thing if your at an area match and they're screwing with the rules. But, a local match, run by volunteers who most likely have to keep the other members of the range happy as well. My club just started having matches, and if someone blows his toes off, I can't go up to the guys who didn't vote to spend funds on steel targets and who only shoot trap twice a month and say "well rule 10.1.1 says this!" They'll get us shut down. According to the OP, the guy who did this had it made clear to him "don't do it".

[Flexmoney]

As much as I love this sport, some people are taking this way too seriously. The shooters were made clear that this was prohibited. Most likely because the owners of the range didn't want to make the news and get shut down because someone decided to blow his toes off... It's one thing if your at an area match and they're screwing with the rules. But, a local match, run by volunteers who most likely have to keep the other members of the range happy as well. My club just started having matches, and if someone blows his toes off, I can't go up to the guys who didn't vote to spend funds on steel targets and who only shoot trap twice a month and say "well rule 10.1.1 says this!" They'll get us shut down. According to the OP, the guy who did this had it made clear to him "don't do it".

Yeah, but this is a rules discussion. And, the rules apply to all match levels. There is a proper way to do an FA. Also, if such an action is likely/possible...well, the stage might be better off being designed different in the first place.

[spanky]

As much as I love this sport, some people are taking this way too seriously. The shooters were made clear that this was prohibited. Most likely because the owners of the range didn't want to make the news and get shut down because someone decided to blow his toes off... It's one thing if your at an area match and they're screwing with the rules. But, a local match, run by volunteers who most likely have to keep the other members of the range happy as well. My club just started having matches, and if someone blows his toes off, I can't go up to the guys who didn't vote to spend funds on steel targets and who only shoot trap twice a month and say "well rule 10.1.1 says this!" They'll get us shut down. According to the OP, the guy who did this had it made clear to him "don't do it".

Edited May 15, 2013 by spanky

[gng4life]

There is a proper way to do an FA...

Kyle, can you expand upon this? The reason why I ask is because I was told recently by the DNROI about another way to do an FA that I have never heard of. I just want to make that part as clear as possible...Thanks

[Flexmoney]

I'd just be referring to the rule book.

- It would need to be in the WSB, right? (not just mentioned at a shooter's meeting)

- It would need to meet the specific criteria listed in the rules?

If there is some special way (other than what is in the rulebook)...I'm not aware of it.

[MarkCO]

Kyle, look at:

2.3.2 All competitors must be notified of any such changes as soon as possible. As a minimum, they must be notified by the official in charge of

the course of fire during the squad briefing.

This is under 2.3 Modification of Course Construction, which includes declaration of a forbidden action.

[Flexmoney]

Yeah...one of many ways to not do a FA right.

[MarkCO]

Yeah...one of many ways to not do a FA right.

Not the "best way", however it is in the rules, so it must be right...

[mactiger]

First off, supine shooting is not prohibited by rule, and in fact 1.1.5 specifically denies the ability to dictate shooting positions or stances.

OK, you say, we get that, but it was announced as a Forbidden Action. I suppose I can see the logic behind that, but one poster on here suggested it was more of a local rule--which again is not allowed. I've seen a lot of people shoot supine without issue, so it would not be a problem for me. There are rules to cover all the things they might sweep getting into that position. I guess my point here is that just because you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it unsafe. And, I hate the Forbidden Action thing altogether, because it's not used correctly most of the time, IMO.

As for spectators shouting "Stop", if it's for a legitimate safety concern that the RO hasn't seen (someone downrange, kids running loose, stray photographer), or operational issue, such as a popper going down with the wind, then I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with, and where many spectators should keep quiet, is for procedural or perceived safety issues that aren't there. If this competitor was going to commit a forbidden action, there was no reason for a spectator to yell stop. Likewise, if you are in a position where you think the 180 is broken, but the RO has not called it, or even blinked, keep quiet.

[Sin-ster]

As much as I love this sport, some people are taking this way too seriously. The shooters were made clear that this was prohibited. Most likely because the owners of the range didn't want to make the news and get shut down because someone decided to blow his toes off... It's one thing if your at an area match and they're screwing with the rules. But, a local match, run by volunteers who most likely have to keep the other members of the range happy as well. My club just started having matches, and if someone blows his toes off, I can't go up to the guys who didn't vote to spend funds on steel targets and who only shoot trap twice a month and say "well rule 10.1.1 says this!" They'll get us shut down. According to the OP, the guy who did this had it made clear to him "don't do it".

[sperman]

If he gave a s#$@ about the rules, he would get his finger off the trigger.