What Size Dot for M&P CORE?

[Tokarev]

I recently picked up a 4.25" CORE and have been running it with a Leupold DeltaPoint with the 3.5 MOA dot.

I ran a few simple drills yesterday on a timer and found that I'm actually a bit faster using my standard pistol equipped with Trijicon HD sights. I find that I can track iron sights in recoil but the dot jumps on each shot and I lose it. Then I feel really choppy trying to find the dot again in the window.

I remember talking about slide mounted optics with a longtime open shooter several years ago. He told me he had tried a dot on the slide of an STI and never could get comfortable with it.

I hope that's not going to be the case here. Maybe switching to something like the 7 MOA triangle will help? Is the bigger aiming point easier to pick up?

TIA!

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[Steve RA]

I think you'll find the larger dot to be much better.

[JesseM]

I have a RMR with a green 12.9MOA triangle. It's fantastic on a rifle and I'd venture it'd be fantastic on a pistol but full disclosure I haven't tried it on a pistol yet.

The large size means it is very easy to pick up compared to a smaller dot. I like the triangle shape because if I'm doing close in shooting if I just get the green on target and I know I'll make a shot on the target but if I need to make a further shot I have the sharp tip of the triangle to do that. It's about the best compromise between large and small dots that I can find.

Edited to add pic of my RMR green triangle

Edited May 6, 2013 by JesseM

[Tokarev]

I think I would prefer to have a simple dot on a pistol since it won't see much use beyond 25-35 yards.

I guess I'll order up a Trijicon RM02 and see if the 6.5 moa dot works better.

Thanks for the help.

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[Steve RA]

Try a Burris FastFire III with the 8" dot. Also has click adjustable windage and elevation.

[Tokarev]

Do you know what the Burris uses for a mounting pattern? The CORE paperwork doesn't list the Fast Fire on the accompanying paperwork.

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[Ken_Bird]

I have an RMR 8 moa. on my G-34 it was different from the STI 2011 and a mounted on top C-more. I am getting use to the smaller profile of the RMR now and am finding the speed is coming back and should be even better.

Now should you give up sent the M& P along with the RMR and I will get it out of you way.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Ken Bird

[Tokarev]

Now should you give up sent the M& P along with the RMR and I will get it out of you way.

You'll be the first to know!

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[Steve RA]

I know it isn't Doctor as that is what mine is drilled for and then I use an Arrendondo adapter to make it fit. I can't remember exactly which one it is the same as.

[Tokarev]

The CORE comes with plates to fit the Leupold DP, Trijicon RMR, Insight MRDS, Docter, JP and Cmore STS.

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[Eyefly]

I have the rm07 which is the 7 moa model. When I was researching all of this, most people said they struggled with the smaller rm02 dot. It seems like the rifle crowd likes the smaller dot because it is stationary and the larger dot is easier to pick up on a pistol.

[latech15]

I am just guessing here, but if your grip isn't really strong, or you aren't using light loads, dot size isn't going to help much. The issue is that you have no comp and you are getting muzzle flip which causes the dot to go out of the window.

If you were having problems picking up the dot while it is IN the window, dot size could help.

[Tokarev]

Something else I noticed while playing with these two pistols is how much easier it was to call my shots with iron sights.

Basically my range drills consisted of shooting Bill Drills on the timer at seven yards, shooting one round from the holster from ten yards and running Bill Drills again from fifteen yards. A C or B was a +5 penalty. A D was a +10 and a mike was +20. I ran each drill four times with each pistol.

When I threw a Charlie using the Trijicon iron sights, I knew the shots were in the C zone when the shots broke. With the DeltaPoint, I could feel the shot get away from me but wasn't really sure where the bullet went until I checked the target.

I wrote all my times down but haven't gone through and really totaled them up yet. I will say that the times across the various distances look pretty much equal, not counting any of the penalties listed above.

Next time I go out, I will mess with shooting on the move. Maybe I will run a couple box drills or something to see if one aiming device works better for me.

I'm hoping a bigger dot will be the way to go. But right now, honestly, I don't see a benefit to a slide mounted optic.

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[Trident]

Depends what your using the weapon for. The RMR with a 6.5 -8 MOA dot is great for a combat sight but not as much for a game gun. Like most, you'll find that your accuracy will improve but you'll be slightly slower than irons.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Trident

[Ten-X]

I used to lose the dot when I first started shooting open. And still see new open shooters lose the dot often. After a couple of years of practice and experience with dots, they just appear when I put the gun up and after recoil it is the same. The dot is right there. This is regardless of dot size.

[Tokarev]

I used to lose the dot when I first started shooting open. And still see new open shooters lose the dot often. After a couple of years of practice and experience with dots, they just appear when I put the gun up and after recoil it is the same. The dot is right there. This is regardless of dot size.

I've shot a couple open guns and, at least with the ones I shot, the dot was mounted to the frame and not the slide. This kept the dot from slamming back and forth and jumping as much as it seems to do on the CORE.

I'm waiting for my RMR to arrive. The tracking number says it'll be here Monday.

[Tokarev]

I'm waiting for my RMR to arrive. The tracking number says it'll be here Monday.

Tracking information has been updated to show delivery tomorrow. Waiting patiently...

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Edited May 14, 2013 by Tokarev

[Tokarev]

Here's the CORE with the Trijicon installed.

The dot is a bit bigger but not noticeably so without really looking. It does seem a wee bit faster in dry fire but I actually think that is because the sight window is smaller. The smaller window might be easier to find the dot in because there's less to look through.

Drills on the timer ASAP.

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[Tokarev]

Comparing the two sights side by side, the Leupold appears to be a bit brighter. The Trijicon has a bit of a dark tint to it. But the Trij seems to have a brighter dot in bright sunlight. Maybe that's due to the tint.

The Leupold is clearer and doesn't have as much distortion as the Trijicon. It also has a bigger window and bigger field of view. The base of the Trij is thicker and it sticks up into the sight plane a bit. I didn't notice anything really in the way with the Leupold in place.

The Trijicon has much better adjustments. I can use a coin or rim of a cartridge case to adjust and the adjustments have tactile clicks. The DeltaPoint needs a Torx bit and the adjustments are free turning. Also, the DP has little lock screws to lock the adjustments but they cannot be accessed because the rear sight is in the way.

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[konkapot]

Andy I wonder if anything would change if that scope were on the very back of the slide; all the way to the rear.

Maybe it's a focal distance thing?

[Tokarev]

Andy I wonder if anything would change if that scope were on the very back of the slide; all the way to the rear.

Maybe it's a focal distance thing?

I think that might have something to do with it but it might be sort of a visual distraction thing. I kind of find myself looking for the irons and then looking over the irons for the dot once the irons are lined up. It might be less distracting with the rear sight in front of the red dot.

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[Tokarev]

What I'm trying to do now is press out with the muzzle just a bit up off level. As I see the front sight centered in the window I start lowering the front sight until I see the dot. Might help me get used to looking directly through the window and hopefully help speed things up.

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[Tokarev]

I recently used my CORE during a four day rifle and pistol class taught by Pat McNamara. The dot works great for long range accuracy and I was able to but 10 rounds in the A zone of a USPSA target from 50 yards. This was an untimed accuracy drill.

Up close, I don't think (seven yards and in) there's not much, if any, real advantage. Iron sights are way more forgiving since there's no small window that must be looked through and traditional sights can be seen peripherally. In some cases this peripheral view is good enough to make a shot if you're only interested in getting hits on target as fast as possible. With that said, I did find it fairly fast to use the sight's window as somewhat of a ghost ring rear sight up close. Also, when running iron sights, I find it much easier to call my shots and I can generally tell that a shot went low and left or whatever based on what the front sight was doing in the rear sight notch. Not so with the dot since the dot doesn't have any sort of reference point other than the target.

Having iron sights on this type of pistol (defensive) is critical. I say that because on one of the last drills of the class my dot quite working. It came back on after a couple of shots and I was able to finish off the class. Mr McNamara told me he's seen this happen from time to time and says he little spring fingers that hold the battery in place can get weak and cause poor contact.

Interesting, I ran an RM01 on a Ruger 308 piston gun. We put about 800 rounds of rifle ammo downrange and the dot worked just fine in that application. The small housing makes for a fairly unobstructed field of view and was fast and accurate out to our max distance of 100 yards.

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