Activators and targets

[Ted Murphy]

Hello,

I designed a stage for our match. Two targets were in out and back targets. The head box was completely visible. The out n back targets were activated each by mousetraps.

The WSB simply said to engage the targets in the free fire area. No mention if the activators.

My idea was bold shooters could just hit the head box. Other shooters could activate and get the body shots.

One shooter said the rule state shooters must activate before they can shoot, even if the WSB did not mandate activation.

I thought it was an option for the shooter. Hit the head box, or take the time to activate and get an easier shot.

Which was correct?

[OUshooter]

9.9.3 & 9.9.4 I believe the idea is that level 1 matches can dictate that activators must be engaged after activation. However, level 2 and higher if you can see it you can shoot it.

Edited May 4, 2013 by OUshooter

[Ted Murphy]

We saw that one, but we did not see one that said it Must be activated even if the WSB does not require it.

[OUshooter]

We saw that one, but we did not see one that said it Must be activated even if the WSB does not require it.

I don't believe there is one. If the Wsb doesn't require it then it's shooters option. At least that's how I understand it.

[GrumpyOne]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available

hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

You don't have to activate before shooting, unless mandated by the WSB in a level I match. No matter what, they still have to be activated per 9.9.3, or you have FTE and misses.

[Poppa Bear]

But how can you penalize someone if the target has the hits in the head? I know the intent of the rule which is you cannot treat targets as disappearing if you fail to activate them to start with, so FTE and miss penalties apply if you fail to activate..

[Nik Habicht]

But how can you penalize someone if the target has the hits in the head? I know the intent of the rule which is you cannot treat targets as disappearing if you fail to activate them to start with, so FTE and miss penalties apply if you fail to activate..

You can't, if the shooter activated the targets. The shooter could do that off the clock, assuming that the activator is a door, port, pullrope, etc.....

[Poppa Bear]

This could be a perfect example for a "Gotcha" stage. Set up 3 drop turners at the start of the stage so that they are fully available WITHOUT activation and fully available after activation. How many people would engage the targets without activating them? You would get a lot of pissed off shooters telling them that they are being assessed 6 misses and 3 FTE because they failed to activate the drop turners.

[Nik Habicht]

I suspect copmpetitors would waste no time making their displeasure known. Want to kill a match? One of the ways is to not listen to your participants.....

[waktasz]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

I thought 9.9.3 only applied to disappearing targets that were never activated. Usually they'd be no penalty mikes, but if you dont activate it it's 2M and a Failure to shoot at.

In this case the targets were not disappearing so 9.9.3 does not apply, right?

Now that I think about it I guess I'm interpreting this wrong.

Edited May 5, 2013 by waktasz

[Nik Habicht]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

I thought 9.9.3 only applied to disappearing targets that were never activated. Usually they'd be no penalty mikes, but if you dont activate it it's 2M and a Failure to shoot at.

In this case the targets were not disappearing so 9.9.3 does not apply, right?

Now that I think about it I guess I'm interpreting this wrong.

You are because 9.9 deals with moving targets, not disappearing targets.....

Choices can be good though -- and activating after last shot, and before If Clear, Hammer Down isn't illegal -- unless it's a level 1 match that spelled something out in the WSB.....

[Poppa Bear]

I was confused for a bit as I read through section 9.9 again. But I think i have a better understanding of how the numbering of section 9.9 relates to different target types and their activation. This new understanding will also change how I interpret the other sections of the rule book based on how the rules are numbered.

9.9.1 states that moving visible targets will always incur FTE and miss penalties. Which is the same as stationary targets.

9.9.2 defines what a disappearing target is and suggests that 9.9.3 comes into play when defining FTE's and misses.

9.9.3 says that failure to activate the moving target will always incur FTE and miss penalties.

If 9.9.3 JUST dealt with disappearing targets it would have been numbered as 9.9.2.1 to specify that is only was relevant to 9.9.2. Because it is labeled as 9.9.3 it is specific to the 9.9 series so it covers both 9.9.1 and 9.9.2. So therefor even moving targets that are full visible prior to activation will incur FTE and miss penalties if the shooter fails to activate them after engaging them.

[JAFO]

So how would this be scored, assuming there are 2 alphas in the upper A zone and the target was never activated?

[Nik Habicht]

So how would this be scored, assuming there are 2 alphas in the upper A zone and the target was never activated?

2 mikes, 1 FTE, write the rule number in the margin with 2 alpha -- that way if the RM overturns the scoring call, no reshoot is needed....

[Skizeks]

This problem can easily go away with much better stage design.

[Flexmoney]

This problem can easily go away with much better stage design.

Words of wisdom.

[austex]

So how would this be scored, assuming there are 2 alphas in the upper A zone and the target was never activated?

2 mikes, 1 FTE, write the rule number in the margin with 2 alpha -- that way if the RM overturns the scoring call, no reshoot is needed....

Respectfully disagree.

Rule 9.9.1 says that non-disappearing moving targets "will always incur" failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties regardless of circumstances.

Rule 9.9.3 says that moving targets "will always incur" failure to shoot at and miss penalties under a specific circumstance: the competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

Exactly the same language is used in both sections: "will always incur." A competitor who shoots at and hits the non-disappearing moving target will not get FTSA or miss penalties, so the competitor who shoots at and hits the moving target will not get FTSA or miss penalties, even if he or she does not activate the mover. The structure of 9.9 thus makes it clear to me that 9.9.2 is an exception to the general rule of 9.9.1, and that 9.9.3 is an exception to the exception in 9.9.2.

In addition, the FTSA penalty is for a particular infraction specified in Rule 9.5.7, which occurs when a competitor "fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round." Rule 9.9.3 does not purport to change that specification. If Rule 9.9.3 meant to impose a penalty for not activating a moving target, regardless of whether it was engaged and hit, the rule should instead impose one procedural for failing to activate and one procedural for each shot required on the target under the WSB.

Bottom line: Unless the WSB specifically requires activation in a level I match, a competitor may engage a moving target without activating it, and will not get a FTSA penalty. Might get miss penalties, but only for actual misses. That's why a Level II or above match must construct the stage to obscure the moving target prior to activation if the intent is for the shooter to activate before engaging.

[Poppa Bear]

So how would this be scored, assuming there are 2 alphas in the upper A zone and the target was never activated?

2 mikes, 1 FTE, write the rule number in the margin with 2 alpha -- that way if the RM overturns the scoring call, no reshoot is needed....

Respectfully disagree.

Rule 9.9.1 says that non-disappearing moving targets "will always incur" failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties regardless of circumstances.

Rule 9.9.3 says that moving targets "will always incur" failure to shoot at and miss penalties under a specific circumstance: the competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

Exactly the same language is used in both sections: "will always incur." A competitor who shoots at and hits the non-disappearing moving target will not get FTSA or miss penalties, so the competitor who shoots at and hits the moving target will not get FTSA or miss penalties, even if he or she does not activate the mover. The structure of 9.9 thus makes it clear to me that 9.9.2 is an exception to the general rule of 9.9.1, and that 9.9.3 is an exception to the exception in 9.9.2.

In addition, the FTSA penalty is for a particular infraction specified in Rule 9.5.7, which occurs when a competitor "fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round." Rule 9.9.3 does not purport to change that specification. If Rule 9.9.3 meant to impose a penalty for not activating a moving target, regardless of whether it was engaged and hit, the rule should instead impose one procedural for failing to activate and one procedural for each shot required on the target under the WSB.

Bottom line: Unless the WSB specifically requires activation in a level I match, a competitor may engage a moving target without activating it, and will not get a FTSA penalty. Might get miss penalties, but only for actual misses. That's why a Level II or above match must construct the stage to obscure the moving target prior to activation if the intent is for the shooter to activate before engaging.

With 9.9.3 you need to activate if you want to avoid FTE and miss penalties. The level 1 exemption is to allow the club the ability to set up the target without all the walls and other obstructions that will cut off its line of sight from other locations. This makes sense because many level 1's are set up and torn down the same day so they need the freedom compared to a level 2 or higher where they have set up the stages a day or more in advance and have the time to nitpick the stages and make changes as holes are discovered.

Even at a level 1 if they fail to specify that the target must be activated prior to engaging it you will still get FTE and miss penalties if you fail to activate it off the clock.

Edited because the post entered as part of the quote rather than after the quote.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Poppa Bear

[austex]

So how would this be scored, assuming there are 2 alphas in the upper A zone and the target was never activated?

2 mikes, 1 FTE, write the rule number in the margin with 2 alpha -- that way if the RM overturns the scoring call, no reshoot is needed....

Respectfully disagree.

Rule 9.9.1 says that non-disappearing moving targets "will always incur" failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties regardless of circumstances.

Rule 9.9.3 says that moving targets "will always incur" failure to shoot at and miss penalties under a specific circumstance: the competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

Exactly the same language is used in both sections: "will always incur." A competitor who shoots at and hits the non-disappearing moving target will not get FTSA or miss penalties, so the competitor who shoots at and hits the moving target will not get FTSA or miss penalties, even if he or she does not activate the mover. The structure of 9.9 thus makes it clear to me that 9.9.2 is an exception to the general rule of 9.9.1, and that 9.9.3 is an exception to the exception in 9.9.2.

In addition, the FTSA penalty is for a particular infraction specified in Rule 9.5.7, which occurs when a competitor "fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round." Rule 9.9.3 does not purport to change that specification. If Rule 9.9.3 meant to impose a penalty for not activating a moving target, regardless of whether it was engaged and hit, the rule should instead impose one procedural for failing to activate and one procedural for each shot required on the target under the WSB.

Bottom line: Unless the WSB specifically requires activation in a level I match, a competitor may engage a moving target without activating it, and will not get a FTSA penalty. Might get miss penalties, but only for actual misses. That's why a Level II or above match must construct the stage to obscure the moving target prior to activation if the intent is for the shooter to activate before engaging.

With 9.9.3 you need to activate if you want to avoid FTE and miss penalties. The level 1 exemption is to allow the club the ability to set up the target without all the walls and other obstructions that will cut off its line of sight from other locations. This makes sense because many level 1's are set up and torn down the same day so they need the freedom compared to a level 2 or higher where they have set up the stages a day or more in advance and have the time to nitpick the stages and make changes as holes are discovered.

Even at a level 1 if they fail to specify that the target must be activated prior to engaging it you will still get FTE and miss penalties if you fail to activate it off the clock.

Edited because the post entered as part of the quote rather than after the quote.

Still disagree with this interpretation. An FTSA is exactly that: no shot at the target. A miss is exactly that: no bullet hole in the target. See this post for the reason behind rule 9.9.3.

[waktasz]

I knew it!

[Poppa Bear]

First I agree that it should not be an issue. If you can see a valid target you should get the score whether activated or not. That said the rule is written as 9.9.3 which means it applies to 9.9. Change 9.9.3 to 9.9.2.1 and it will only apply to disappearing targets.

Edited to add some new thoughts:

A scoring target must have the entire head or 25% of the lower A zone visible on a metric target, or 25% on a classic target to be considered a valid target. Good course design should not allow that much of the target to be visible prior to activation if it is a moving target so until it is activated it will not become a valid target. If it is not a valid target then miss and FTE penalties would apply.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Poppa Bear

[austex]

First I agree that it should not be an issue. If you can see it you should get the score whether activated or not. That said the rule is written as 9.9.3 which means it applies to 9.9. Change 9.9.3 to 9.9.2.1 and it will only apply to disappearing targets.

The rule doesn't have to be renumbered. A FTSA penalty only can be applied if a target was not engaged with at least one shot. A miss penalty can only be applied if there is no hole in the target. See another post from George found later.

[OUshooter]

9.9.3 Not withstanding I can and have scored Mikes and failure to engage on targets that had holes in them. the targets must be engaged within the context of the rules in order for those shots to count for score or penalty.

[Ted Murphy]

This was more of an academic discussion at the club as all shooters activated before shooting.

I did not intend to give people the choice. I had set two out and back targets so there would be a generous head shot available if people did not get them on the move in time. As a result, there was about 2" of the head visible when the target was reset.

A long discussion with 2 open shooters happened, while they debated the merits of tapping the heads instead of activating them. At the time of the discussion, I felt that had they shot the heads and not activated them, that it did not seem right to call a penalty on that as the WSB did not mandate activating the mouse traps. They chose not to shoot it that way as they felt the disaster factor was too high.

I was wondering if I had inadvertently set up a "screw the shooter stage" by leaving the head visible, but then also wondered if giving the choice in such a stage was legal.

Thank you for your replies, I think the answer for me is to work on the setup so you can't see the heads when I use out and back targets again.

[Poppa Bear]

Part of the problem is the differences in shooters. A shooter who is 5' tall will see the targets different than the one who is 7' tall. In many cases the best we can do is leave at most a small part of the D zone or head visible to the shooters that are above or below average height. That way it is like your open shooters who decided that the reward was not worth the risk.