Size limit on a no-shoot?

[Mark R]

Been reading the rulebook and can't find if there is a limit on the size of a no-shoot.

Scenario: You are setting up a match and have a wall with a port and a couple targets to shoot at through the port. In order to save your wall from getting shot up from shooters not coming into port to engage targets, you decide to put no-shoot targets around the port(left, right, top, and bottom). This requires you to use 4 targets, white side out.

Instead of using 4 legal targets, can you get a large piece of white painted cardboard (like from an appliance shipping box), cut a hole in the middle for your port size and use it...considering you create a 1/4 inch perforation for the non-scoring border? Using a sewing kit perforation wheel?

Rule 4.2.2.1 states The face of paper no-shoots must include a sufficiently distinguishable non-scoring border. In the absence of perforations or other suitable markings, the Range Master must order that all affected targets have a replacement non-scoring border drawn or fitted thereon.

Legal to score no-shoot penalties?

Or would you have to paint it black and call it hardcover and use the perforations for partial hits on scoring targets.

Goal I'm trying to end on is no-shoot penalties to keep shooters off the wall/port frame. If hardcover, then wild shots go unpunished.

[Steve RA]

Seems like you could DQ for hitting the doorway - a friend of mine got dq'd out in Reno for shooting one of the little bars out of a window that looked like a tellers cage in an old bank.

[Sarge]

Seems like you could DQ for hitting the doorway - a friend of mine got dq'd out in Reno for shooting one of the little bars out of a window that looked like a tellers cage in an old bank.

Say whaat?

[Cy Soto]

Steve RA, on 29 Apr 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Seems like you could DQ for hitting the doorway - a friend of mine got dq'd out in Reno for shooting one of the little bars out of a window that looked like a tellers cage in an old bank.

That sounds to be a "local club" rule. I cannot think of any USPSA rule that could be used to uphold a DQ in this example.

.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Cy Soto

[sperman]

10.5.18 Because I said so!

[Cy Soto]

10.5.18 Because I said so!

You made me look...

[Steve RA]

What does 10.5.18 say ???

[Mark R]

10.5.18 Because I said so!

You made me look...

Damn...made me look too! Nice one Sperman.

[Sarge]

What does 10.5.18 say ???

Says you can't do that!

[High Lord Gomer]

I prefer to use a concave steel border to throw the errant shots back at the shooter.

I see nothing that dictates the size of paper no-shoot targets.

[Steve RA]

Well, I can assure everyone that it happened, was some sort of National event in Reno in late 80s/early 90s and a number of us had gone out there from Dallas area. He shot one of the bars out of a window and got DQd. I guess it could have been considered an AD, although the shot obviously had to go toward the target area.

[D.Hayden]

Preety sure noi shoot targets still have to be 'authorized paper targets'.. they are scoring targets.

4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from

scoring targets. Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized

paper targets may be used. Metal no-shoots do not have a non

scoring border.

[GuildSF4]

Well, I can assure everyone that it happened, was some sort of National event in Reno in late 80s/early 90s and a number of us had gone out there from Dallas area. He shot one of the bars out of a window and got DQd. I guess it could have been considered an AD, although the shot obviously had to go toward the target area.

IIRC in that time frame shooting a prop was a DQ-able offense.

Or would you have to paint it black and call it hardcover and use the perforations for partial hits on scoring targets.

No perf needed on hardcover, partial hit on hard cover can score, full diameter does not.

[Mark R]

I think you need a perf on the outside of hardcover (unless it was painted steel) just like hard cover on a scoring target. Otherwise, how would you know that the nick was from a bullet vs. a banged in area of the cardboard? On steel, the fresh paint nicked would indicate bullet touch. The 1/4 inch border is to indicate it was a bullet striking the object, hardcover in this aspect.

[Sarge]

Walls don't have perfs. Hardcover does not need perfs

[EkuJustice]

Easiest fix I'd put a target that can't be seen unless your basically through the port. Good way to guide the shooter through stage design. If its just no shoots people will probibally still try and take it back from the port

[Norther]

Cardboard port borders get pretty tattered just by muzzle blast, especially the top from open gun comps. Hard to use no-shoots there. I'd agree with Dave that no-shoots need to be standard targets.

[GuildSF4]

I think you need a perf on the outside of hardcover (unless it was painted steel) just like hard cover on a scoring target. Otherwise, how would you know that the nick was from a bullet vs. a banged in area of the cardboard? On steel, the fresh paint nicked would indicate bullet touch. The 1/4 inch border is to indicate it was a bullet striking the object, hardcover in this aspect.

The grease mark shows up on cardboard and a curve that matches bullet diameter, on wood bullet hits show up, impact marks don't. (Also full diameter hits in hard cover are generally obvious).

If you use hardcover make sure it is taped between shooters.

[remoandiris]

4.1.3 and 4.2.2.1 address no-shoots. Nothing in the rulebook discusses no-shoot size, shape, etc. 4.2.2.1 states no-shoots must have a non-scoring border.

An argument could be made only official classic and metric targets are allowed as either shoot or no-shoot targets per 4.2.1.

[mhs]

4.1.3 and 4.2.2.1 address no-shoots. Nothing in the rulebook discusses no-shoot size, shape, etc. 4.2.2.1 states no-shoots must have a non-scoring border.

An argument could be made only official classic and metric targets are allowed as either shoot or no-shoot targets per 4.2.1.

You could also argue that since 4.2.2.1 allows for use of modified targets which did not originally have a non-scoring border (which classic and metric have), other types must be allowed.

[remoandiris]

4.1.3 and 4.2.2.1 address no-shoots. Nothing in the rulebook discusses no-shoot size, shape, etc. 4.2.2.1 states no-shoots must have a non-scoring border.

An argument could be made only official classic and metric targets are allowed as either shoot or no-shoot targets per 4.2.1.

You could also argue that since 4.2.2.1 allows for use of modified targets which did not originally have a non-scoring border (which classic and metric have), other types must be allowed.

True, as long as the non-scoring border is installed as required in 4.2.2.1. Or it could mean some past manufacturing process of classic and metric targets did not include perfs.

[mhs]

4.1.3 and 4.2.2.1 address no-shoots. Nothing in the rulebook discusses no-shoot size, shape, etc. 4.2.2.1 states no-shoots must have a non-scoring border.

An argument could be made only official classic and metric targets are allowed as either shoot or no-shoot targets per 4.2.1.

You could also argue that since 4.2.2.1 allows for use of modified targets which did not originally have a non-scoring border (which classic and metric have), other types must be allowed.

True, as long as the non-scoring border is installed as required in 4.2.2.1. Or it could mean some past manufacturing process of classic and metric targets did not include perfs.

Maybe all it means is that if you cut off part of the (classic or metric) no-shoot, you are required to make a new non-scoring border in the affected area. This interpretation doesn't contradict either rule.

[Norther]

<<That's the way I read it. The rule book doesn't talk about size, shape etc. because it tells you there are only two legal paper targets. Period. Full standard size only. And no-shoots are targets.

[kevin c]

Unless the port mentioned by the OP is really high or low, or extremely short top to bottom, you could get away with just putting stacked regular noshoots on either side at the level bullets will be passing through the port. When stacked, the NS's turn into a wall of white with the individual target silhouettes being lost. I don't see that as any different from what was originally proposed, but using real targets removes any potential challenge (just being practical here).

I've seen small ports framed with a single NS with the center cut out, nonscoring border replaced, of course.

[gng4life]

I've done this quite a bit but I only use official no-shoot targets stabled to the walls and other items to help with cutting down on shot up walls and props. Good question though...