Kicking around a new scoring system for ICORE

[Bubber]

I had a discussion with another ICORE member on the way back from a match this weekend. It was a long drive and had time to get some ideas rolling. It would be a time plus Point generating system. The reason for this would be keep all stage perfomances weighing the same for the total out come of the match. Like not having the standards results weighing so much more than other stages. The stage times would still be time plus and the winner would be the one with the less raw and added time. But would generate a point value for all stages would enter in a match total. I have the basic plan but need info to test to see if it is doable. I need the hits required for each of the 8 stages on the SW Regionals. I have copied the Limited results and that will act as my test. I want to keep the accuracy and speed element weighted the same. So who has the stage descriptions for the last SW Regional just completed? Once I have it worked out I do plan on initiating a Rule Change form and hope there is imput from the guys that are better in the thinking department than I to get a better system.Thanks rdd

[ffl]

Bubber,

That is an interesting concept. As a Board member I am open to anything that would make our sport more interesting and make it grow. I do like the current scoring of time plus as it keeps the spray and pray crowd honest. other shooting sports weight the scoring on speed and not accuracy. What is the point of going fast if you can't hit the target accurately.

I look forward to your concept.

David

[seanc]

It sounds like you are suggesting a scoring system that makes short stages and long stages more or less have the same value to the match outcome?

am I reading that right?

[Bubber]

It sounds like you are suggesting a scoring system that makes short stages and long stages more or less have the same value to the match outcome?

am I reading that right?

Somewhat, But not the same just closer. A 4 string counting stage (similar to Steel Challenge) could be worth 100 points, and the longer stage of 30 hits would be 150 points. Having a equipment melt down pretty much destroys any chance of placing decent, right now. The plan, while not giving you an easy road to recovery at least offers the chance. We are in the very early concept stage and need to run scenarios to check if it is doable. Right now USPSA is a series of sprints for a match. ICORE Scoring is more of a Marathon. I am not a sprinter and the marathon would certainly take a toll on me Thank FFL and Seanc for the interest. later rdd

[Ty Hamby]

Thanks for bringing up the topic. I am interested in following where this goes, however not on board for any changes currently.

The spray and pray crowd has their sport. ICORE attracted me due to it being time based sport where marksmanship always trumps equipment and athleticism. I do shoot monthly USPSA in L10 minor with my 627. In fact I shot a week ago Friday the Golden Bullet in L10 minor squadded with John Bagakis, only to go down the following day to shoot the ICORE regional with John on Saturday. Same everything two different scoring systems, both of us shooting 8 shot minor power 627's both days. I can tell you ICORE favors tremendously slower moving more accurate shooter. John Shoots fast A's all day long no matter what game we are playing. I shoot Fast C's or slow A's in USPSA. I shoot mostly fast A's with a few B's and fewer C's in ICORE.
At the Golden Bullet his score was 2nd L10. I was not even in the same zip code. The following day, My name was 5th overall limited.,(I beat an A limited club member/friend who I have never beaten before. A huge acomplishment for me).

I am a C shooter in L10 John is a Master in USPSA

I am a B Limited, he of course is a GM in ICORE

I am eager to see what changes to the current scoreing would have similar finishes being that we both shot on par (he slightly worse, myself sightly better). We both discussed our matches over lunch Sunday after Steel Challenge at Hogue. (Yep, 900 round weekend for myself,my wife and John). He said he felt both his matches could have been better, he did have some minor errors that a only a trained eye would even notice. Hey it is John, he is smooth even when he fumbles. I shot a conservative match on friday at the GBC using it only to prepair for the SW, so I shot a little slow and precise, My golden bullet scores suffered, (beat John on Stage7 <grin> ). Saturday I had one of my best days shooting at the SW. I shot swift and accurate, which is what ICORE scoreing requires.

I am not getting any more athletic. I do understand as ICORE gets younger and youthful athletes enter, there will be a percentage that may want to change it to stop these old farts from putting a whooping on them. Equipment failures should NEVER be a consideration (in my opinion) to change a scoreing system. We all know we need to show up with equipment that runs. If your fireing pin goes down on the first stage of the day, oh well! Life is not fair.

Here are the Stages from the 2013 SW Regional.

[professor]

A while back I got involved with some other guys interested in coming up with a scoring scheme for USPSA/IPSC that gave shooters stage scores for a match that didn't change based on the performance of the best shooters on each stage. We kicked around various ideas of Time Plus scoring. The stumbling blocks to a workable system were (1) how much to penalize mikes and penalties, and (2) how to limit the liability of a blown stage to the individual's match score.

As you know, USPSA stages have a minimum score of zero, which means broken equipment on a stage cannot penalize your match score more than zero points out of the maximum you might have gotten. In Time Plus scoring, a single blown stage can knock you out of the match due to excessive time penalties.

The conclusion I came to was that the scoring scheme dictated how a shooter could best attack the stages to max out their performance. You couldn't fairly evaluate a different scoring system, because shooters wouldn't have employed the same shooting options if they knew what that different scoring system would reward in terms of performance.

Simplest example would be scoring El Prez using USPSA hit factor versus Time Plus. A shooter can get a decent Hit Factor with a fast time and a couple of C hits, but Time Plus scoring would destroy their score unless they scored all Alphas.

About the only way to put some sort of limit on Time Plus scoring's disaster potential would be to set a Par Time for each stage, so the worst you could do is Par Time Plus Penalties for unshot targets.

[Bubber]

Thanx Ty, I am simone???cyme/// doing both at the same time on a different web that you are on. (Revo Nation). My stumbling block right now is the 1 second of per X HIt stages. The other stuff can be handled mathmaticaly by increasing ot decreasing time penalties for non A Hits.

Professor, I am working to minimize the diaster factor with a time generated point system. Thanx guys

Later rdd

[Jaxshooter]

I agree with Ty. If you change the scoring in ICORE I think you will loose not gain shooters. It seems that most action shooting sports reward speed over accuracy except ICORE. That is what seperates ICORE and Bianchi from IPSC/USPSA. In two you have to shoot accurately and in the other two you have to run fast. I say leave ICORE alone and if you don't like the scoring shoot USPSA or practice and learn to shoot more accurately. If you want to cover equipment problems come up with a reasonable alibi system like Bullseye.

[seanc]

Thanx Ty, I am simone???cyme/// doing both at the same time on a different web that you are on. (Revo Nation). My stumbling block right now is the 1 second of per X HIt stages. The other stuff can be handled mathmaticaly by increasing ot decreasing time penalties for non A Hits.

Professor, I am working to minimize the diaster factor with a time generated point system. Thanx guys

Later rdd

selfishly speaking, as a guy that needs to take 3 vacation days and spend 2 grand in expenses to shoot the irc, I for one would be all for a scoring system that did not destroy my entire match if there was a single stage meltdown for whatever reason. Edited April 30, 2013 by seanc

[seanc]

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Edited April 30, 2013 by seanc

[Bubber]

I agree with Ty. If you change the scoring in ICORE I think you will loose not gain shooters. It seems that most action shooting sports reward speed over accuracy except ICORE. That is what seperates ICORE and Bianchi from IPSC/USPSA. In two you have to shoot accurately and in the other two you have to run fast. I say leave ICORE alone and if you don't like the scoring shoot USPSA or practice and learn to shoot more accurately. If you want to cover equipment problems come up with a reasonable alibi system like Bullseye.

Reread the first post. I wish to keep the weight of accuracy and speed weighted towards accuaracy. When we first came up with criteria for scoring we tried to have a (Max Time) for a stage to more or less equal out a high counting stage. The stage weight has ben cussed and discussed for a while, even on this board. All I ask is an open mind. The changee, if it happens will be long in comming. I am putting forth an effort, not for my sake (because I do like the STANDARDS. And do fairly consistent.) So just bear with me. Thanx Roger Davis.

[Carmoney]

Interesting concept. I am interested in where this goes. There are a multitude of ways that one relatively minor glitch on a stage can kill your entire ICORE match. At one of the IRC's I managed to violate some stage instructions that prevented firing extra shots (the ICORE version of Virginia Count). The ensuing penalties were killer, and knocked me down from what would have been 2nd Limited to 7th Limited. And I didn't even need the extra hits! My own stupid fault, obviously, but the ICORE penalties can be pretty heart-wrenching stuff.

I also had a squib at the same match. Thank God it was on a multiple-string steel stage, and I was able to use that run as my throw-away. A squib on a field course would have sent me to the bottom of the list.

Mistakes, equipment failures, and other miscellaneous melt-downs should certainly be penalized, but perhaps not so incredibly harshly. I can handle the suffering and keep coming back for more, but I'm not sure the same is true for the newer shooters we desperately need to attract to ICORE.

[Carmoney]

I would also add that I believe it wrong to categorize USPSA as a spray-and-pray sport that rewards reckless shooting. While there may be some basis for that perception at the beginning levels, it's important to recognize that accurate shooting is an imperative for any sort of success at the higher levels of the sport.

Just sayin'......

[seanc]

i think the fastest is always going to win. the game is timed, lowest number wins.

the fastest shooters are winning and it does not matter at all if the system changes, the fastest shooters are still going to win.

jerry, dave o, john b, rich, josh, neil...these guys mop up because they are fast, very very fast.

Whatever fast is, however you define it, they are doing it. They are not just most accurate, they are most accurate in least time. These statistics are not revealed in the scores from the irc that i am awre of, but i strongly suspect the top 25 shooters in the match are shooting very close to the same number of a's b's and c's, its just the best are moving that much better, they are entering and exiting each shooting position just a little faster, they are reloading just a little faster, they are taking shots on the move that everyone else is static for.

That is the difference between the best and everyone else. The scoring system will not change that and arguably the current system is punishing more severly those that it would appear some think it is helping.

If a bunch of the notable production guys that are shooting only alphas in uspsa got into this game they would be right in the mix at the top. A scoring system that does not tank an entire match because of a blown stage is a very good thing imo.

[seanc]

I would also add that I believe it wrong to categorize USPSA as a spray-and-pray sport that rewards reckless shooting. While there may be some basis for that perception at the beginning levels, it's important to recognize that accurate shooting is an imperative for any sort of success at the higher levels of the sport.

Just sayin'......

totally agree. this idea that you can shoot poorly to victory is unfounded. points are points, the winners at nationals virtually always shot the most raw points right?

[Ty Hamby]

Reread the first post. I wish to keep the weight of accuracy and speed weighted towards accuaracy. When we first came up with criteria for scoring we tried to have a (Max Time) for a stage to more or less equal out a high counting stage. The stage weight has ben cussed and discussed for a while, even on this board. All I ask is an open mind. The changee, if it happens will be long in comming. I am putting forth an effort, not for my sake (because I do like the STANDARDS. And do fairly consistent.) So just bear with me. Thanx Roger Davis.

I don't like the thought of changing a scoring system that I have grown to like. I initially hated it (because I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.) Originally I scored better at USPSA than I did in ICORE. Now that my shooting skills have improved I score much higher in ICORE than I do currently in USPSA. I shoot with the same core people in both sports with the same equipment. USPSA scouring is the best example of a shooting sport where the actual shot doesn't matter as much as the time used to miss the A zone. I find that ridiculous for a shooting sport, but enjoy the trigger time and time with friends.

What you are proposing sounds like you are taking all of that into consideration. That being said, I am open to beta test any theory that will move me up in the overall results. Count me in!

Here is

of the SW. Myself being lefty I shot from the other side as everyone else. There were XX on both left and right sides. Unlike the book. Edited April 30, 2013 by Ty Hamby

[Cd662]

Sounds interesting, I'd like to see how it effects a match. Perhaps when you're farther along you could show the results of a local match, and then the results with the new system applied.

I agree with seanc, good shooters are good shooters. I feel like USPSA has this stigma that you can just run around like a jerk and spray Charlies and Deltas and magically win. We also see how far this gets new-to-USPSA Production shooters who think they're really fast because they burn down targets at the club level when shooting another action pistol sport. Time is certainly a more favored factor of USPSA but I think efficiency is the important part. I'm pretty sure I could destroy Taran Butler in a foot race, in pushups and situps, and in other fitness terms. The guy would still kick my ass to here and back. I think this is with revolver ESPECIALLY, you have to hit Alphas (or down Zero in IDPA) as quickly as possible, period. No ifs ands or buts about it. It's simple and it's brutal because there are no excuses and no makeup shots. The penalties differ from game to game in terms of how bad you are dinged for NOT having those perfect shots, but at the end of the day the TOP GUYS (and personally, I want to be a top guy) are shooting bullseyes.

I also agree that the Standards overtime penalty is ridiculous because that .31 extra seconds is a MATCH ENDER if you really want to be a top dog. 10 seconds is like two extra runs on a Steel Challenege-esque stage or an additional classifier or like, 4 or 5 extra reloads on a field course. If there's any issue I have with the accuracy to time ratio, it's that one.

[seanc]

Thanks for bringing up the topic. I am interested in following where this goes, however not on board for any changes currently.

The spray and pray crowd has their sport. ICORE attracted me due to it being time based sport where marksmanship always trumps equipment and athleticism. I do shoot monthly USPSA in L10 minor with my 627. In fact I shot a week ago Friday the Golden Bullet in L10 minor squadded with John Bagakis, only to go down the following day to shoot the ICORE regional with John on Saturday. Same everything two different scoring systems, both of us shooting 8 shot minor power 627's both days. I can tell you ICORE favors tremendously slower moving more accurate shooter. John Shoots fast A's all day long no matter what game we are playing. I shoot Fast C's or slow A's in USPSA. I shoot mostly fast A's with a few B's and fewer C's in ICORE.

At the Golden Bullet his score was 2nd L10. I was not even in the same zip code. The following day, My name was 5th overall limited.,(I beat an A limited club member/friend who I have never beaten before. A huge acomplishment for me).

I am a C shooter in L10 John is a Master in USPSA

I am a B Limited, he of course is a GM in ICORE

I think there is a little more going on here right?

You can't compare your performance in L10 with a revolver to the match winner and make the connection that its all about speed because the equipment is not the same. No matter the case, the L10 winner was shooting a gun with 10 bullets, and he was doing reloads more than twice as fast as you. It does not matter if the reloads are standing or not, he was getting them done more than twice as fast as you meaning he could pay attention to shooting more than twice as fast.

The match winner also scoring major. It has been discussed ad nauseum that minor scoring is incredibly severe. It is designed that way, TGO himself described it on this very forum that someone shooting minor in a division with major and minor scoring should NEVER win. That is by design.

John is a great shooter, that's why he can hang at that level, even scoring minor. John could not shoot fast C's and place where he did, not scoring minor, I bet he shot a whole bunch of only A's...just like if he were shooting ICORE.

The only meaningful comparison you can make from the uspsa match is you vs john, you are shooting same gear and both scoring minor.

If you make John the 100% and then score yourself against john you were 68.55%. Solidly in the B class. At the SW regional you were 73.55% of John.

A 5% difference, but still solidly in the B class scoring range.

I would extend this a little further and argue that once you hit B class, one of the things a B shooter probably struggles with is performance swings...consistency. A 5% performance swing between two matches is totally expected in at this level.

I do not think anything about uspsa scoring is favoring athleticism anymore than ICORE's scoring, not at all.

Edited April 30, 2013 by seanc

[GOF]

The current ICORE scoring system does place an emphasis on speed (time recorded) but it places a bigger emphasis on accuracy... and in some cases, stage planning. I have seen young 'gazelle' shooters rip through a stage far faster than the 'Deliberate Old Fart'... and lose to them when they started counting all their B & C hits.

If speed of foot & speed of trigger pulling (kinda like USPSA) is to be a crieria for winning.... instead of actually hitting what one is aiming at... then a change to ICORE scoring rules might be indicated.

On the other hand... if accuracy & stage planning still count for something... then the current scoring system seems just fine. When you start adding up the B & C hits (one and two seconds a pop)... it's appearent that you truly "Can't miss fast enough to win".... At least, not in ICORE. I kinda like that. YMMV.

Edited April 30, 2013 by GOF

[seanc]

You can't miss fast enough to win in uspsa.

At nationals, the best are shooting 92-3% or more of all available points in the iron sight divisions and in open they are shooting 97% or even a little more.

Nobody is missing fast and winning, it is a total myth.

[Ty Hamby]

You can't miss fast enough to win in uspsa.

At nationals, the best are shooting 92-3% or more of all available points in the iron sight divisions and in open they are shooting 97% or even a little more.

Nobody is missing fast and winning, it is a total myth.

I do agree with you on the fact that the cream will always rise to the top.

Ugh! It is hard to type legibly my thought. I will do my best. My wife also shot both events with myself and John. Her speed has not increased much if at all, however she has become crazy accurate. Zeroing a couple of stages (all A's), However slow. Now in USPSA she still finishes last hitting all A's. In ICORE she takes 1st Limited Lady and 1st D. Now you and I may yawn at a good D class finish. She is still on a SW regional high. Facebook-ing videos and pictures to all her friends and families. Her equally great (crazy accurate) slow shooting at the golden bullet did not do her a lick of good. We all told her to speed up, She kept her head and made her hits. The following day that same shooting style translated to an entirely different effect on this shooters moral.

I guess my point is New ICORE shooters get smiles faster than New USPSA shooters if your not fast and nimble? She has also shot USPSA monthly for 2 years.

After explaining my thoughts again, I have come to the realization that we just cant compare the two. USPSA shooters would not shoot so fast if it cost them the win doing it. and ICORE shooters would just speed up if those B hits didn't matter. I think ICORE's scoring wins the debate huge cause it is so easy to understand. 4 years of USPSA shooting and I still have no clue how my stage percentage is calculated. I have tried, friends and Youtube have only created more confusion. ICORE has a problem (although easy fix) It doesn't display (at national or regional events) how the time plus penalties was calculated. We do not know if it was 5 B's or 2 C's and a B, or even what the raw time was. Unless it is a par time stage you have no idea how the person shot more than just, good or bad. I am willing to pay a higher yearly ICORE dues to get a real scoring software that displayed more data. IDPA and Jane's ForScore did it right by displaying penalties, hits and raw time.

As a matter of fact I refuse to participate in any ICORE Scoring discussions till the darn scouring software gets fixed. I an willing to discuss reform but not till you close the border first, (oops wrong topic) fix the scoring software first. Come on ICORE. Show us that as an International Shooting Organization that you can at least produce a scoring system to accurately display how that time came to be. Until this can get fixed why bother with another formula based hard to comprehend solution. (of course i'm only <half> kidding.) Carry on my friends....

[reuel_f_emery]

Any measure which makes scoring LESS complicated would be really helpful.

Measures which add complications and require SUPERCOMPUTERS...and legions of accountants, mathamaticians, etc, are a bane....

Why should we spend 2 minutes to shoot a match (I am really slow)

...and then 2 hours waiting for scores?....EGAD...

[Cd662]

Reuel, have you ever worked a match on either a local or sanctioned match for any major action pistol discipline (IDPA, ICORE, USPSA/IPSC, Steel Challenge, NRA Action Pistol)? The scores don't magically spit out in 20 minutes. I'd be worried if my scores were spat out that fast. I assume your complaint is about USPSA scoring. If you're too lazy to try to learn about the scoring system, don't play the game and don't complain about it. Or you can be part of the "I'll just shoot and whatever happens, happens" crowd.

Time plus scoring places extreme penalty on an error. In USPSA you can mess up a stage and still recover from it because of the way match points are awarded. In IDPA or ICORE, I could win 5 stages of a 6 stage match and then if I botch the 6th stage bad enough, the last place shooter on every stage could still beat me.

Addendum: For the sake of being helpful, here's a guide to USPSA scoring written by a revolver guy who posts here.

http://www.nepaidpascores.net/misc/USPSAscoringbyKenO.pdf

Edited May 6, 2013 by Cd662

[Bubber]

I have been crunching data from the SW Regionals and swithching to the Time Plus Point generating. It is not the way to go. On the faster stages (not Smaller) when converting it over it really goes overboard and throws a wrench in it. I see in one stage times were in the 30 to 50 range and one 104 pops out. I just need more info than just times. ICORE"s time plus mirrors USPSA's points with the scoring for the B and C hits. Still looking.

[Carmoney]

Reuel, have you ever worked a match on either a local or sanctioned match for any major action pistol discipline (IDPA, ICORE, USPSA/IPSC, Steel Challenge, NRA Action Pistol)? The scores don't magically spit out in 20 minutes. I'd be worried if my scores were spat out that fast.

Cd662, it appears you haven't shot a match where they utilize Practiscore yet.