Stoeger M3000 Scattergun?

[BobS761]

I'm wondering about the whole inertia gun vs. mounting thing. I never thought about it, just mounted the gun and pulled the trigger. But, at my last match I had about 4 failures with ammo that previously was 100%, (Federal WalMart pack, 3 dr, 1 1/8 oz 7 1/3 shot). I don't know if I was holding differently, of maybe some dirt somewhere, or maybe mag tube spring. But here is the question, and I don't think I've seen it answered. Does one hold tight, or light? Best I can describe the malfunction is the gun failed to put a round on the lifter. I don't know if it ejected the hull after firing, or I racked it out, but I had to release a round onto the lifter and rack it a second time. I did change mag spring, and used better shells to finish with no more issues.

[Vlad]

Well the M3000 should release a round onto the lifter when you pull the trigger (or press the button) which would be before the action cycles. My guess that has more to do with the tube spring or some other issue.

[BobS761]

Interesting. I just need to investigate it further, I could have been doing something wonky on the trigger in the heat of the moment. Never had an issue before. I may need to just clean the trigger group.

[MarkCO]

Well the M3000 should release a round onto the lifter when you pull the trigger (or press the button) which would be before the action cycles. My guess that has more to do with the tube spring or some other issue.

Correct. There is such a thing as too much spring BTW.

If the fit is right, a forward aggressive stance that keep the muzzle flat. Some people tend to place the buttpad too far out...actually ON their shoulder joint, but it should really be inboard of the. Patrick uses a softer recoil pad, as do I, which helps keep the gun from stalling with the light target loads. If you have some mass, tight grip and a very hard pad, at some point 3 drams or less, you will stall it, which is FTE, not FTF.

[P.E. Kelley]

Well the M3000 should release a round onto the lifter when you pull the trigger (or press the button) which would be before the action cycles. My guess that has more to do with the tube spring or some other issue.

Correct. There is such a thing as too much spring BTW.

If the fit is right, a forward aggressive stance that keep the muzzle flat. Some people tend to place the buttpad too far out...actually ON their shoulder joint, but it should really be inboard of the. Patrick uses a softer recoil pad, as do I, which helps keep the gun from stalling with the light target loads. If you have some mass, tight grip and a very hard pad, at some point 3 drams or less, you will stall it, which is FTE, not FTF.

This^^^

[openclassterror]

On this vein, one of my intended projects after my hip surgery is to measure the spring tensions and weights on the components of the M3020. It is good down to 7/8oz 20ga loads, and will cycle 3" shells so travel of the bolt is similar. The inertia spring and the recoil spring are smaller in diameter than on the 12ga, and the reciprocating mass is lower as well. I intend to custom wind a spring set and lighten a bolt to duplicate the mass and spring tension of the 20ga on a 12ga receiver to see if it will cycle the same level of loads. Obviously this will have to wait until I am back to full speed and have completed the jobs I have already promised people (such as Taran's Inertia AR-10 12ga, he has been patiently waiting for MONTHS for me to finish making his magazine set for that!). In other news, I will have photos up later tonight of an unmodified factory M3k port, compared to our Pat Kelley- inspired port, compared to the M3k cut to the practical limit allowed by the relocated SN. Should inspire some die-grinder work over the weekend! My apologies to everyone who has been waiting on projects in our shop recently. I have been working 10-14 hour days, but at half speed due to the hip damage. You don't know what a simple blessing it is to have normal joint function until you don't have it any more. Amazing that your flesh and bone last millions upon millions of stress cycles when the very latest composite titanium-ceramic joints only last 10 years in an active athletic person. I will need 4 sets if I live a normal life span!

[openclassterror]

Interesting. I just need to investigate it further, I could have been doing something wonky on the trigger in the heat of the moment. Never had an issue before. I may need to just clean the trigger group.

If the hammer fell far enough to strike the primer, it tripped the shell release. There is either a mechanical issue in the shell release/ shell latch interface (gunk or burrs), or the end of the latch where the shell rests at the magazine mouth is rough (it is a cast part), or it has excessive magazine spring tension. The last is not likely if the failure occurred with a partially full magazine. There really isn't any trigger technique you can use that will prevent the shell release latch from functioning. If the hammer falls, there should be a shell on the lifter. Period.

[openclassterror]

OK, for starters, here is a side-by-side of the two M3k profiles we have seen so far. These are factory M3K Competition model receivers, unmodified.

[openclassterror]

Here is a factory M3k port, side-by-side with our Pat Kelley inspired port shape. I cut this on an M3K version 2.0 receiver so you can see where ours is deeper and where theirs is. On the low side, the M3k is only about .020 deeper than our "safe" (for the serial number) cut. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to move the serial number, then take less than 1/32" additional material off from where we had to stop before. Roughed in the CNC, prior to blending and polishing. This is our standard cut on all M3000s with old serial number location. It is as far as you can go on that side without molesting the SN. This is also the standard cut for the P3K signature model.

[roadie3]

Tom,

The human body is design remarkable well, even with all the abuse we give it. My wife is a physical therapist and I have often heard how well patients do after surgery, both hip and knees. The rehab won't be a walk in the park, unless you have a great therapist, but you will feel so much better

I know I am alright waiting for some work to be done because I know you have done such a great job of taking care of your customers. I greatly appreciate all your work. A little wait is worth the great care and quality you produce. Thanks for all your work.

- Benjamin

[openclassterror]

Here is as far as we are comfortable taking the M3K, now that the serial number is no longer a factor. Integrity of the receiver is now the controlling feature. It is cut forward into the magazine tube, lowered almost to the hairclip on the back side, throated as far as practical without losing the shoulder that retains the follower. You can see how much more "unshrouded" the follower is. More pics on the next post...........

[openclassterror]

We left a small "hump" at the end of the port, so you have a tactile indicator that the shell is seated past the latch. Some guys go to great lengths to make a super smooth blend up the ramp, so you can run your hand right past the end of the receiver. In reality, any movement past the point where the shells are retained in the magazine is wasted movement, and wasted movement is wasted time. I prefer to "feel" when the shells are in, so I don't have to overshoot a half mile to ensure I don't "short-stroke" and ghost load the second shell of the quad load onto the lifter. If you cut more ramp away to smooth the hump, two things happen: 1) you seriously reduce the integrity of the receiver right below the threads that hold the mag tube on. Ask anybody who has cut too much here on a Browning A5 what happens if this gets too thin. 2) the mouth of the magazine tube becomes a Knife-edge if you increase the depth of the ramp cut. You lose the nice funnel shape that guides the shell nose into the tube, and have no room for error on the depth of your shell stack going into the gun. The only way to save this is to cut the front of the port further forward into the ramp so you can re-cut the funnel. At that point you are dangerously close to losing the little lip that keeps the follower and spring from jumping out onto your lifter. That means a scrap receiver.

In conclusion, is this absolutely as far as it can go? NO. But, it is the best combination of good aesthetics, good function, and structural integrity that we can cut on 1,000 receivers without risk that one is dimensionally different enough to come out wrong.

Edited September 18, 2015 by openclassterror

[openclassterror]

Tom,

The human body is design remarkable well, even with all the abuse we give it. My wife is a physical therapist and I have often heard how well patients do after surgery, both hip and knees. The rehab won't be a walk in the park, unless you have a great therapist, but you will feel so much better

I know I am alright waiting for some work to be done because I know you have done such a great job of taking care of your customers. I greatly appreciate all your work. A little wait is worth the great care and quality you produce. Thanks for all your work.

- Benjamin

Thanks for the kind words BTW, your shotgun is almost complete, awaiting only the Spiral-fluted Mag-tube spacer coming back from Anodize before final assembly. Should ship early to mid next week!

[roadie3]

Tom,

The human body is design remarkable well, even with all the abuse we give it. My wife is a physical therapist and I have often heard how well patients do after surgery, both hip and knees. The rehab won't be a walk in the park, unless you have a great therapist, but you will feel so much better

I know I am alright waiting for some work to be done because I know you have done such a great job of taking care of your customers. I greatly appreciate all your work. A little wait is worth the great care and quality you produce. Thanks for all your work.

- Benjamin

Thanks for the kind words BTW, your shotgun is almost complete, awaiting only the Spiral-fluted Mag-tube spacer coming back from Anodize before final assembly. Should ship early to mid next week!

That is fantastic! Im super excited to get my hands on this and take it to a range and then onto a competition.

[P.E. Kelley]

We left a small "hump" at the end of the port, so you have a tactile indicator that the shell is seated past the latch. Some guys go to great lengths to make a super smooth blend up the ramp, so you can run your hand right past the end of the receiver. In reality, any movement past the point where the shells are retained in the magazine is wasted movement, and wasted movement is wasted time. I prefer to "feel" when the shells are in, so I don't have to overshoot a half mile to ensure I don't "short-stroke" and ghost load the second shell of the quad load onto the lifter. If you cut more ramp away to smooth the hump, two things happen: 1) you seriously reduce the integrity of the receiver right below the threads that hold the mag tube on. Ask anybody who has cut too much here on a Browning A5 what happens if this gets too thin. 2) the mouth of the magazine tube becomes a Knife-edge if you increase the depth of the ramp cut. You lose the nice funnel shape that guides the shell nose into the tube, and have no room for error on the depth of your shell stack going into the gun. The only way to save this is to cut the front of the port further forward into the ramp so you can re-cut the funnel. At that point you are dangerously close to losing the little lip that keeps the follower and spring from jumping out onto your lifter. That means a scrap receiver.

In conclusion, is this absolutely as far as it can go? NO. But, it is the best combination of good aesthetics, good function, and structural integrity that we can cut on 1,000 receivers without risk that one is dimensionally different enough to come out wrong.

Now that is a masterful porting job!

[TyinTX]

For somebody who wants to get one of these shotguns and loads primarily weak hand load 2 which porting job would be recommended?

[openclassterror]

The less aggressive (Pat Kelley style) is actually BETTER for weak hand load-2 than the big port. The shells are between the receiver walls sooner so they receive more guidance, and you don't need clearance for the second shell stack that a quad loader needs. I can load duos faster with the smaller port.

[P.E. Kelley]

Thank you for taking the time to field these questions Tom, I can think of no better source of quality info!

[TyinTX]

Many thanks to both Tom and Pat. I mostly load 2 but I do a few quads and seems like the standard port will still be best. I've been leaning towards the P3k but I wanted to see the final results on the M3K potential before I made the decision. Now just to squirrel away the money where the wife doesn't notice it's gone and place an order.

[muddywings]

Thank you for taking the time to field these questions Tom, I can think of no better source of quality info!

Ditto.

Thanks again! Pictures are awesome.

[cbjan75]

"Folks I could use some help. For the past month I've been trying to find a Stoeger M3K (stoeger product #31855). I had the opportunity to use one and it's the shotgun for me! Would anyone have a line on where I can find one! I have spent days calling around to dealers and I keep getting "60-90 days if we can even get one but we won't try to order without a 20% deposit" as a new 3 gunner I can't afford to give money out to a shop that may not even get me one."

A friends status on FB... What says the group?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MarkCO]

We have seen them show up sporadically at Liberty Arms in Ft. Collins, CO. Otherwise I would check with MOA precision.

[openclassterror]

Unfortunately we can't spare any, as all we can get go into custom builds, but most of the bigger chains (Dick's, Sportsman's Warehouse, Etc) locally have M3Ks on the shelf. The ones that don't can generally do a store-to-store transfer for $20 within a week or two. Do you have any of the chain stores in your vicinity? Next best choice is to watch Gunbroker, but you have to be fast. Don't find one on your lunch break and assume it will be there when you get home from work.

[cbjan75]

Unfortunately we can't spare any, as all we can get go into custom builds, but most of the bigger chains (Dick's, Sportsman's Warehouse, Etc) locally have M3Ks on the shelf. The ones that don't can generally do a store-to-store transfer for $20 within a week or two. Do you have any of the chain stores in your vicinity? Next best choice is to watch Gunbroker, but you have to be fast. Don't find one on your lunch break and assume it will be there when you get home from work.

Mine is the one he shot, I lucked out and got one through GunBroker. I believe mine is the first in this area. I'll suggest he try Dick's as well.

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[roadie3]

Tom or Pat,

Do you suggest running a box of 3" shells through the P3K version to break in the shotgun? I know this is what Stoeger recommends for the stock versions. Wondering if you have any ideas about break in period with a shortened spring?

Thanks