Weapon starting conditions - 2 Strings

[BillChunn]

Can a 2 string stage have different weapon conditions when starting each string?

Example of the Written Stage Briefing:

String 1. Gun is unloaded and holstered, hammer down, slide forward or cylinder closed per 8.1.3.

String 2. Gun is loaded and holstered per 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

This is going to be an 8 round per string speed shoot engaging targets from the same shooting box. To save a little bit of time, I'd like the shooter to reload or remain hot for the second string.

Reviewing section 8.1 "Handgun Ready Conditions" there are no specific rules indicating that all strings must have the weapon start in the same condition.

Thoughts?

BC

[sperman]

BIll,

Sorry to drift your thread slightly, but the stage you describe doesn't qualify as a speed shoot. ("Courses of fire consisting of one continuous

string of fire...") It would work as a Standard Exercise, but you can't have more than 6 rounds per string, unless you also have a mandatory reload.

For your original question, I can't find anything in the rulebook that would prevent it. I think it is OK.

[BillChunn]

Ok, we'll call it a slightly modified Standard Excercise. It's our last indoor match of the season and we kinda bend the rules a little bit (and don't shoot a classifier) when we are indoors. Working with very limited space to get four stages into 50' x 60' is always fun.

BC

Edited April 11, 2013 by BillChunn

[GigG]

There's no rule against it.

[mactiger]

If you aren't playing by the rules anyway, then why bother to ask if this is legal?

[Sarge]

If you aren't playing by the rules anyway, then why bother to ask if this is legal?

It's not always that simple Troy. We shoot indoor winter leagues here and we use painters tape for fault lines because it's easier to keep in place than laying actual fault lines out. And we use paper plates to replicate steel. And we have much less room for props etc near the indoor range at the club. So yes, we violate the rules in some regards but we always strive to have the stages be legal since we are practicing for actual matches when the season hits.

I clearly see the validity of bill's question from a standpoint of wanting to at least try to keep things as close as possible to real world matches.

As to the OP's question. I don't see why you can't do it other than the fact that a lot of inexperienced shooters show up for our winter league and keeping them hot might be a little advanced. I would be leery of a new guy taking a sight picture with a hot gun?

[Nik Habicht]

If you aren't playing by the rules anyway, then why bother to ask if this is legal?

Probably to not have it be illegaler than it absolutely needs to be..... :goof:

[spanky]

If you aren't playing by the rules anyway, then why bother to ask if this is legal?

Probably to not have it be illegaler than it absolutely needs to be..... :goof:

[BillChunn]

If you aren't playing by the rules anyway, then why bother to ask if this is legal?

It's not always that simple Troy. We shoot indoor winter leagues here and we use painters tape for fault lines because it's easier to keep in place than laying actual fault lines out. And we use paper plates to replicate steel. And we have much less room for props etc near the indoor range at the club. So yes, we violate the rules in some regards but we always strive to have the stages be legal since we are practicing for actual matches when the season hits.

I clearly see the validity of Bill's question from a standpoint of wanting to at least try to keep things as close as possible to real world matches.

As to the OP's question. I don't see why you can't do it other than the fact that a lot of inexperienced shooters show up for our winter league and keeping them hot might be a little advanced. I would be leery of a new guy taking a sight picture with a hot gun?

Good point. I'll make sure the WSB reflects no sight pictures in String 2. The stage will have two sets of of four targets that are positioned right above each other with the heads of the top set and the bottoms of the lower set painted as hardcover. That way the rounds will (hopefully) end up in the impact area.

As fas as new inexperienced shooters and indoor matches, yes we have the exact same thing. Since we are on such a tight timeframe, we run the match by pre-registration and appointed squad times. Some of the senior RO's look through the squad list before the match and will focus in on the new people so they can provide a little extra attention to those folks.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

BC

[sperman]

Good point. I'll make sure the WSB reflects no sight pictures in String 2.

That's not legal either.

[lcs]

If you aren't playing by the rules anyway, then why bother to ask if this is legal?

It's not always that simple Troy. We shoot indoor winter leagues here and we use painters tape for fault lines because it's easier to keep in place than laying actual fault lines out. And we use paper plates to replicate steel. And we have much less room for props etc near the indoor range at the club. So yes, we violate the rules in some regards but we always strive to have the stages be legal since we are practicing for actual matches when the season hits.

I clearly see the validity of bill's question from a standpoint of wanting to at least try to keep things as close as possible to real world matches.

As to the OP's question. I don't see why you can't do it other than the fact that a lot of inexperienced shooters show up for our winter league and keeping them hot might be a little advanced. I would be leery of a new guy taking a sight picture with a hot gun?

Our indoor league is not a sanctioned USPSA match. We do make every attempt to adhere to USPSA rules whenever possible. As Sarge mentioned, fault lines are an example of how we have to deviate from the rules. We allow folks to shoot with 22s if they have a holster and mag pouches that meet safety standards.

If Bill is not presenting a classifier, is Bill's match really a USPSA match?

[BillChunn]

It's our last indoor match of the season and we kinda bend the rules a little bit

We shoot indoor winter leagues here and we use painters tape for fault lines because it's easier to keep in place than laying actual fault lines out. And we use paper plates to replicate steel. And we have much less room for props etc near the indoor range at the club. So yes, we violate the rules in some regards but we always strive to have the stages be legal since we are practicing for actual matches when the season hits.

That's not legal either.

It all boils down to perception. The club's 2nd Vice President in charge of Safety might just see things a bit differently.

Maybe a little background is needed here. We are a fairly large club with over 1,000 active members, different committees and a Board of Directors. The Board is elected and the committee members are all volunteers. They rotate on a regular basis.

The different disciplines that use the indoor range are NRA junior pistol, NRA junior rifle, NRA senior smallbore rifle, Bullseye, PCC, Concealed Carry, black powder (yes... indoors!!!) IDPA, USPSA, law enforcement rentals and of course "open" shooting for club members that just want to plink at paper. To the majority of the other club members who have never seen our sport, all that they know is that the "Ip-Sick" group runs with guns.... so they are inherently unsafe. Since they have only fired a pistol or rifle while standing still, they just can't comprehend how a person could safely run with a gun....

I don't know about any of your club's indoor ranges but our's get the crap shot out of it. Ceiling tiles, walls, lights, floor and sometimes the actual shooting benches have all been hit by rounds. Not just once or twice. When this happens, the rumor mill goes full throttle and "it must be those ip-sick guys shooting up the place again." Even though there is a log book used to record range inspections and damage that is supposed to be filled out each time the range is opened and used by the different disciplines, it doesn't stop the damage. It only narrows it down to one of the preceding groups.

We have survived for the past 20+ years because we generate money for the club, large amounts of money. In 2012 it was over $14K. That still doesn't stop the preception that goes along with running with guns. Certain individuals didn't want our type of shooting in the club at all. The bad news is that those same individuals have volunteered or been elected to positions of power within the organization.

We really have no room for error and will always leans towards safety. If we didn't, we would be thrown out of the club. We have already come pretty close to that when a member drew his Glock from a Serpa holster, had a negligent discharge and a round went through his leg. This happened during an outdoor match.

To you and I, there actually is no difference between a loaded sight picture and drawing from a holster and engaging targets. To the un-informed Board member that only shoots shotgun or rifle on occasion, who is going to make a decision on the possibly upcoming vote to get rid of the "ip-sick" group, it's a totally different matter. His version of safely handling a gun is to load one shotgun shell in the bottom barrel of his $30,000 over-n-under right before he yells PULL!

Again, it's about perception in a very political environment.

Wow.... that sure was long....

BC

Edited April 12, 2013 by BillChunn

[mactiger]

If you aren't calling it a USPSA or IPSC match, then you are free to use whatever rules you want. If you are calling it a USPSA match, then you are, by definition, required to follow the rules.

What I don't get is that if it's not a USPSA match, why are you bothering to ask about USPSA rules here? Close doesn't matter if you aren't following all of the rules.

Paper plates and tape lines are not legal within our rules. Neither is disallowing a loaded sight picture, despite the perception. I'm all for burning gunpowder, and I understand the realities of dealing with boards and multi-discipline clubs (I think it's dumb that all shooters can't just get along, but that's a whole other discussion).

So if you want to call it a practical match, or a practice session, then by all means go for it. But don't call it a USPSA match and then publicly announce that you "bend" the rules.