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How much impact on your score does your gun have on score?


biscuit
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If you are using an off the shelf production gun, how would switching to an upscale production gun like a CZ 75 have on your score?

Has anybody done any actual research on this?

Would your overall score go from say 55% to 65% score more or less or no difference at all?

I know its about me as a shooter ( doing the work: dry fire, live fire, training and matches) but as an intermediate shooter I was just wondering how the gun impacts my scores as you here so much chatter from all the gun companies and their shooters about how much better I would be if I use their gun.

Is it Hype some Truth or enough Truth to be valid enough and worth the $$$$ and increase in score.

I guess what I am getting to is (perceived or real) performance increase vs $$$ and would there be an increase or is it just perception.

too many scores up top...

Edited by biscuit
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Ive read somewhere here, which in my experience is true, when you just switch to a different gun, your score actually is better. Part of the reason is you tend to be more careful taking your shots, its a different gun, im sure sights will be different too.

Now, when you go 'faster', that is where you see your scores go down again.

To me, the biggest factor is a working gun, 100% all the time, reliable ammo and mags.

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The answer is it depends on lots of factors. if you are talking about going from a Kel-Tec P11 to a CZ shadow with all the bells and whistles then you will probably see quite a lot of difference, if you are looking at the difference between a GLOCK, XD, CZ ect. in other words from one proven platform to another the gun make very little difference.

Keep in mind that the only way to buy better scores is to spend the money on ammo and practice, practice, practice.

Mike

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There is no way to answer this question. There is no research to be done. It is not possible to be determined empirically, because it is impossible to have two different test subjects who have the exact same familiarity with their weapon and the sport.

A nicer gun might make you feel better and give you more confidence, and you might enjoy your time spent with it more. But the only way it will make you a better shooter over a gun that is "serviceable and good enough" is if it motivates you to train more because you truly enjoy playing with it. That's not a trivial point.

I will say this however: KC Eusebio won and set something like 3 or 4 world records at the last Steel Challenge, and Bob Vogel came within half a percent of winning Limited Nationals last year both with Glocks. How much were these guns worth compared with the average value of the guns the rest of the top 10 were using? I would say probably around 1/3.

I do not think Bob would have won if he spent all his training time with an STI and was as good with it as he is with his Glocks. I also do not think HE thinks he would have won with an STI either, or else he'd probably be shooting one now. He would have won, however, with one less miss, or a few less deltas, or a few less moments of hesitation. Half a percent. Think about that.

Edited by DonovanM
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a fancier trigger job can cover up more of your mistakes. if you have ben stoeger's trigger control, you can pick up anyone's gun and shoot tiny groups at very high speed.

I think it's important to have a trigger you are comfortable with and sights you can see and a gun that fits your hand and runs reliably. then just learn how to shoot it.

I *dont* have ben's trigger control (yet), but in pure shooting terms, I don't shoot my 1911 any better than I shoot my m&p, or my cz75b. But I enjoy shooting the 1911 and the cz alot more, so that's what I shoot (and I sold the m&p to someone without a soul who likes crappy plastic guns). :devil:

Edited by motosapiens
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It comes down to the gun and the ammo used. A Glock capable of shooting 2" groups at 25 yards is just as much in contention as an S_I capable of doing the same. In the same persons hands that same Glock or S_I would clean up if the other gun was only capable of 6" at 25 yards. Tweak the guns so that they shoot with identical accuracy and it becomes an even match again.

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I agree on all points. If you want to split hairs, you will find improvement That's the beauty of production division, not a "gear race' Although I shoot OPEN also, I enjoy Production and use a run of the mill 92FS and still do fairly well.

My local club, Norco Running Gun is ran by a World Class Grand Master, Jojo Vidanes. Let's just say, he shot his Single Stack for practice for Austral Asia. He STILL kicks everyone's ass !!! Including OPEN and LTD shooters!

Brian E. mentioned in his book, If you need to change something to get better, do it. It's usually mental attitude change, hence improvement It's only a Tool.

"One cannot buy skill"

Spend the difference in $$ on ammo/components and match fee/range fee.

Edited by flack jacket
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The question is how much difference does the gun make? To me, this question assumes all else being equal. ALL else. That means, shooter familiarity, accuracy of the guns, reliability of the guns, fit of the guns to shooter, etc.

If we are talking JUST ABOUT THE GUN, then I think the gun in your hand is irrelevant, all else being equal. I don't see how it could matter if all else is equal.

If all else is not equal, then it becomes a matter of fit to shooter and training on platform. As long as you comfortably operate the controls, you can train yourself to shoot anything as good as anything else. It is so NOT about equipment and so about self discipline and achievement. You cannot buy performance in this game off the shelf.

You can buy it in time, effort and money spent on gun maintenance, ammunition, gas, lodging, match fees and club dues.

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The primary selling point for a better gun (or horn, or bike, or anything else) is that it will be more enjoyable to use, and you are more likely to practice with it. If it's also more reliable and accurate, then so much the better. But a better gun in and of itself isn't going to improve your scores very much.

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IMHO, it's a matter of components:

1. if one gun is slightly faster to reload (better magwell, etc), that's a slight advantage

(can be 1-2 seconds per COF)

2 if the trigger pull is better, that can affect accuracy and the speed with which you

fire the 24 - 32 shots (another 1-2 seconds/COF)?

3. if the gun is heavier and produces little less muzzle flip, that can add to a 1-2

second advantage over a lighter gun

4. if the gun holds more rounds, that might save a 1-2 second reload on some stages

5. if the sights are better - that can make you more accurate and faster - save another

1-2 seconds per COF.

Sure I'm missing something here, but IMHO I will shoot better/faster with a "better" gun

than with a worse gun - I still won't beat the local Master, but my score will be better.

And, then, if I practiced ... :bow:

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Agreed, the little things can add up. The big difference between a good run and a great run is the time saved with unnecessary movements. Little of that is the gun itself, more is the shooters efficiency at engaging the targets. One shot, one hit saves more time then a 1/10 second saved on the reload.

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My 2 cents.

It is shooter dependent. I started with a G34 in prod. Gusmith barrel, trigger job the way i wanted it, and took everything else to the limit of the rule book. I was ok with it. It shot 3 inches at 50 yards(not me) and allways had guys making offers on it. Ran out of 9mm but had 45 one day so decided to shoot SS. I was faster with the 1911. The gun was not better(factory trojan) , just a better fit to me. I think that it is all about finding the system/gun that fits you. 1911, 2011, tangfo, cz, berreta, glock, whatever. Just shoot every gun you can until you pick one up and blows your mind. Then tweak it the way you want, and start blaming yourself for your scores!

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If the question is truly stock gun vs. fancy gun, yeah it matters. Years ago I shot a box-stock G34 in Production for a while. It's certainly a fine gun, but could use some improvement. At some point I decided to throw some money at it and added a Vanek trigger, nice sights, grip tape, and a lighter recoil spring. Huge improvement, just huge.

But this is obvious, right? The three things that truly matter are reliability, sights, and trigger (in that order, I would argue), so throwing money at those things is going to make a difference up to a point.

However, if the question is will going from an adequate, suitably-modified-but-otherwise-plain gun like a Glock, M&P, or XD to a truly fancy gun like a CZ Shadow or a Tanfoglio Whatever, also make a big difference? *Shrug*, I dunno, what do you think? Maybe it will maybe it won't. At one point I thought I might shoot a Beretta trigger better than a Glock trigger, even a nice one, but it turned out to be a wash. If I concentrated on the Glock trigger like I should, I shot it just as well, plus it didn't have the DA first shot disadvantage. So if you have something that works for you but could use some upgrades, I would try those upgrades first before "trading up".

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One thing for me that is huge, is being confident in my gun. Knowing that it hits where I aim it. If another gun gave me more confidence, I think I would shoot better, but not right out of the box. But my perspective is from a relative beginner.

B

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Confidence is huge, comfort is too! I certainly feel more comfortable shooting my CZs/clones over anything I've ever shot, so that's what I shoot. In reality, I think I could shoot just as good with a Glock, but every time I pull the trigger on one I throw up in my mouth a little bit :sick:

Edited by kneelingatlas
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Most of us cannot outshoot the guns we use.

That being said, each of us being different in different ways, each of us may find it easier to shoot very well with one particular platform rather than some other, but that probably only is apparent after honing the skills to the utmost, and even then the differences might be small, and outweighed by other factors that affect performance. One of those factors, a huge one, is confidence. So, if you think it will make you shoot better to change guns or modify what you have, well....

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the gun and gear race is a great way to spend lots of money for little gain. found this out the hard way. If two guns are roughly comparable then the shooter will be the deciding factor. At a major match I shot on the same squad as a GM who was running a Production gun and watched him kick the crap out of the rest of us with our full blown Limited and Open guns.

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My G34 is the most accurate factory pistol I've ever had. But yes there are many tricks to improving your score, flared magwell, within rules, crisper/lighter trigger, better sights and better gripping surfaces are but a few that make differences in a score.

But if all works for you, feels good and functions every time there are other things that help more.

It's not the guy with the fancy looking gun that cost over a $1000 that you worry about, it's the one with a beat up, functioning gun who just spent a $1000 on primers.

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It all depends on which one you shoot better for example with me I started with a G34 and liked it then went to a CZ Shadow Custom and a GM friend of mine asked why I was shooting so slow lol. I just wasn't use to the CZ yet and was better with the Glock because I had more time behind it but now I feel more confident behind the CZ. He also let me shoot his Brazos STI .40 and I was ringing steel a lot faster than both of my guns so for me the 1911/2011 I guess you could say Iam better with but put time behind a gun you like and practice that will make more of a difference than the platform to some. Vogel shoots a Glock better than a lot of guys can with race guns because he has time behind it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

IMHO, it's a matter of components:

1. if one gun is slightly faster to reload (better magwell, etc), that's a slight advantage

(can be 1-2 seconds per COF)

2 if the trigger pull is better, that can affect accuracy and the speed with which you

fire the 24 - 32 shots (another 1-2 seconds/COF)?

3. if the gun is heavier and produces little less muzzle flip, that can add to a 1-2

second advantage over a lighter gun

4. if the gun holds more rounds, that might save a 1-2 second reload on some stages

5. if the sights are better - that can make you more accurate and faster - save another

1-2 seconds per COF.

Sure I'm missing something here, but IMHO I will shoot better/faster with a "better" gun

than with a worse gun - I still won't beat the local Master, but my score will be better.

And, then, if I practiced ... :bow:

I really tend to agree with you on this after running some matches just those few seconds here and there add up. Practice, dry fire and training still rule but if you can sight in a touch better and hit a couple more 'A's and don't throw one then it adds up. On a large match that 2 seconds a stage could mean 24 sec. total, that does add up.

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There is no way to answer this question. There is no research to be done. It is not possible to be determined empirically, because it is impossible to have two different test subjects who have the exact same familiarity with their weapon and the sport.

A nicer gun might make you feel better and give you more confidence, and you might enjoy your time spent with it more. But the only way it will make you a better shooter over a gun that is "serviceable and good enough" is if it motivates you to train more because you truly enjoy playing with it. That's not a trivial point.

I will say this however: KC Eusebio won and set something like 3 or 4 world records at the last Steel Challenge, and Bob Vogel came within half a percent of winning Limited Nationals last year both with Glocks. How much were these guns worth compared with the average value of the guns the rest of the top 10 were using? I would say probably around 1/3.

I do not think Bob would have won if he spent all his training time with an STI and was as good with it as he is with his Glocks. I also do not think HE thinks he would have won with an STI either, or else he'd probably be shooting one now. He would have won, however, with one less miss, or a few less deltas, or a few less moments of hesitation. Half a percent. Think about that.

Vogel is shooting a finely tuned Glock and his skill level is through the roof but if the gun didn't feel right to him would he have done as well. I think it would be hard for him to switch to another gun now also. In one of my training sesssions the pro was hard pressed to even consider changing guns even though his was old and starting to really have some wear and tear.

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