Practice or Parts?

[Adrenaline]

Well.. that should be common sense. You shouldnt step into the ring without a reliable set up.

[xdf3]

I don't agree and I'll explain why. Maybe it will look clear at the end (please, take some time to answer, don't just reply to offend my uncommon opinion)

 

Let's take out of the equation some very expensive parts, and let's take into consideration gun parts which may cost from 5 to 200$

 

A very easy to understand example for what I know :

 

Cz Shadow2, ipsc production rules. 

Stock shadow2 vs main spring 11LB.

In the first case, to do what you can do with the 11Lb spring, you will need so much practice that it could literally be a "waste" of money and time.

 

Let's say it's 20$ in the worst case. You spent it once, and here you go. 100% sure it will take less time to press the trigger, OR it will mean less mistakes done due to pressing it. Have you ever considered how much points you might lose (or not gain) due to using a bad gun? 

 

Yes, everybody can have good results with a bad/average gun, with a lot of practice. Is it smart? I can bet it's not.

 

It's the same example you can use for training courses or practice. 

 

Another part is : HOW MUCH will that part change your results?

 

To me, for example, the RIGHT recoil spring will give HUGE results compared to the effort, while practicing with a BAD SPRING and trying to have the same results will take MUCH MORE EFFORT.

 

 

After some time, there will be a stable point, so, trying new parts will probably give 0 to little improvements.

 

The key measurement is improvement/cost. If you are decent at analysis, you will probably find out what is more cost effective.

 

Another simple example for what I know :

1500$ to spend:

Glock 17
Cz Shadow2

 

Let's say it's 500$ for the Glock and 1000$ for the Shadow2.

Saying you have 500$ left to spend on practice is a really bad idea to me. It won't ever be enough to cover the disadvantages of using a Glock. Maybe you will have to shoot 30'000 rounds to be somewhere near the same level of a 1000-rounds shadow2.

[Hi-Power Jack]

xdf3, you were on a roll - had to agree with your - UNTIL you got to the last example.

 

Actually, I'd rather spend the extra $$$ for the better gun also, but you are about to

kick up a real s..tstorm here on BE ...

 

The next post will inform us of all the GM's who use Glocks, as an example.

 

Keep your head down for the next day or so.     

[xdf3]

52 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

xdf3, you were on a roll - had to agree with your - UNTIL you got to the last example.

 

Actually, I'd rather spend the extra $$$ for the better gun also, but you are about to

kick up a real s..tstorm here on BE ...

 

The next post will inform us of all the GM's who use Glocks, as an example.

 

Keep your head down for the next day or so.     

It doesn't mean anything.

 

You can't take most GM's with thousands of rounds shot. It's just not a good example.

 

Take a new/average shooter, give him a glock or a shadow2 and see the difference in no time.

 

There are few exceptions, and of course the typical GM which shoots over 40k rounds a year is not a good example. Of course some shoot less, and of course it won't matter as much after a certain level of skill. 

[Gibby0311]

Practice 100%. Parts can provide small, incremental improvements but practice (proper) is proven to provide substantial improvements. If you’re new (and I am to USPSA), Practice can give you massive improvements. I’m new this year to USPSA. I’ve shot more 9mm this year than I have in the last 5 for practice and matches. The improvements are far more than any bit of parts can provide.

[elguapo]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:29 AM, xdf3 said:

I don't agree and I'll explain why. Maybe it will look clear at the end (please, take some time to answer, don't just reply to offend my uncommon opinion)

 

Let's take out of the equation some very expensive parts, and let's take into consideration gun parts which may cost from 5 to 200$

 

A very easy to understand example for what I know :

 

Cz Shadow2, ipsc production rules. 

Stock shadow2 vs main spring 11LB.

In the first case, to do what you can do with the 11Lb spring, you will need so much practice that it could literally be a "waste" of money and time.

 

Let's say it's 20$ in the worst case. You spent it once, and here you go. 100% sure it will take less time to press the trigger, OR it will mean less mistakes done due to pressing it. Have you ever considered how much points you might lose (or not gain) due to using a bad gun? 

 

Yes, everybody can have good results with a bad/average gun, with a lot of practice. Is it smart? I can bet it's not.

 

It's the same example you can use for training courses or practice. 

 

Another part is : HOW MUCH will that part change your results?

 

To me, for example, the RIGHT recoil spring will give HUGE results compared to the effort, while practicing with a BAD SPRING and trying to have the same results will take MUCH MORE EFFORT.

 

 

After some time, there will be a stable point, so, trying new parts will probably give 0 to little improvements.

 

The key measurement is improvement/cost. If you are decent at analysis, you will probably find out what is more cost effective.

 

Another simple example for what I know :

1500$ to spend:

Glock 17
Cz Shadow2

 

Let's say it's 500$ for the Glock and 1000$ for the Shadow2.

Saying you have 500$ left to spend on practice is a really bad idea to me. It won't ever be enough to cover the disadvantages of using a Glock. Maybe you will have to shoot 30'000 rounds to be somewhere near the same level of a 1000-rounds shadow2.

 

Just yesterday I stomped on a guy shooting a Shadow 2.  I shoot a P-09 with less than $30 of upgraded springs, a $39 FO front sight, and a home-made stipple job.

 

 

[xdf3]

11 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

Just yesterday I stomped on a guy shooting a Shadow 2.  I shoot a P-09 with less than $30 of upgraded springs, a $39 FO front sight, and a home-made stipple job.

 

 

This doesn't mean much, it's like saying Grauffel can beat a novice by using a glock

 

Anybody is free to use (or waste) his time/money 

 

Except for beginners, I don't understand why you'd prefer to spend 1000$ for practice over a 50$ part, for example. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

I think it's not a case of one or the other - I like to do both - spend $$$$ on getting the equipment right,

and practicing, both.      

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, xdf3 said:

Except for beginners, I don't understand why you'd prefer to spend 1000$ for practice over a 50$ part, for example. 

 

In most cases the $50 for some magic part is a waste of money, while in most cases $1000 spent on structured, disciplined practice will pay off in spades.

 

That is, if improving matters to you.

[xdf3]

54 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

I think it's not a case of one or the other - I like to do both - spend $$$$ on getting the equipment right,

and practicing, both.      

Of course it's both, but there are parts like -> short reset disconnector, or reduced trigger spring, which could take 5000 - 30'000 rounds just to achieve the same results. 

[Joe4d]

You can practice most things that will improve your scores for free. or nearly free. Grip training, draws to a target, draws from various positions, getting into and out of position reloading on the move dry fire drills, transitions, snapping your eyes to next target..
I think there does come a point of diminishing returns on equipment though. As your get gets better your scores will get better. To a point.. after that ? Yeh I think lots of folks chase the gizmo of the month. However  we really need those kinds of folks. Some one came up with the idea of a reddot, extra capacity mags, thumbrests, slide rackers, magfunnels and was the first to try them out. Yep probably 100 other gizmos that didnt pay off along the way. 
THat which works rises to the top, that which doesnt gets cast aside.

[xdf3]

20 hours ago, Joe4d said:

You can practice most things that will improve your scores for free. or nearly free. Grip training, draws to a target, draws from various positions, getting into and out of position reloading on the move dry fire drills, transitions, snapping your eyes to next target..
I think there does come a point of diminishing returns on equipment though. As your get gets better your scores will get better. To a point.. after that ? Yeh I think lots of folks chase the gizmo of the month. However  we really need those kinds of folks. Some one came up with the idea of a reddot, extra capacity mags, thumbrests, slide rackers, magfunnels and was the first to try them out. Yep probably 100 other gizmos that didnt pay off along the way. 
THat which works rises to the top, that which doesnt gets cast aside.

Guess what, most top shooters tune their weapons to have the best possible. There are few exceptions. Only few won't tell you. It wouldn't be smart to have a bad gun and working on practice (wasting time, literally, while you could work on something else, except if you have 8 free hours a day)

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, xdf3 said:

  It wouldn't be smart to have a bad gun and work on practice 

 

    I couldn't have said it better, myself.     

[redpillregret]

While I’m typically a big training advocate, I kept missing DA shots with my Shadow 2. Sure, if I slowed way down, I could guarantee an Alpha but the time expense doesn’t improve my score.

 

I dry-fired 30minutes 4-5x week and was shooting 2-300 rounds live 3x a month through it in practice and an additional 300 rounds per month in matches. I suppose DA comprised around 1/4 of those rounds, yet I was not making progress in DA. After around three months, a friend and fellow competitor texted me a list of springs and parts and suggested I get them.

 

I purchased them x2 (one for each of Shadow 2s as to keep the trainer and match gun the same) for a sum of $80 shipped. Suddenly I was getting Alphas out of the holster and ringing steel out of the holster.

 

I don’t know how much longer it would have taken me to achieve the same results with training but at three months, and at least more than 9x the cost in ammunition, I “bought performance” with two spring kits and firing pins.

 

According to some of you guys how long should I have “trained” to get the same result of $80 on parts? Additionally, are those guys all shooting 100% stock pistols? Yes, I will continue to practice. My practice has and should continue to focus on the whole gamut of skills but it did not correct my shortcoming at this time while parts did improve my scores and confidence. The notion that it is practice OR parts is asinine. It should be practice AND parts.

 

ETA: I also had a $450 training course during this time and fired 1,200 rounds during that which I didn’t count.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

[elguapo]

Grip strength does wonders for that DA trigger press without needing to get it down to 5 lbs or so.

[elguapo]

I don't think anyone has ever said "don't change anything about your gun".  I certainly have modified mine slightly and said so before.

 

The point is that training (be it on shooting skills, strength, or physical speed) pays off far more than most of the gimmicks people spend money on.

[xdf3]

1 hour ago, redpillregret said:

While I’m typically a big training advocate, I kept missing DA shots with my Shadow 2. Sure, if I slowed way down, I could guarantee an Alpha but the time expense doesn’t improve my score.

 

I dry-fired 30minutes 4-5x week and was shooting 2-300 rounds live 3x a month through it in practice and an additional 300 rounds per month in matches. I suppose DA comprised around 1/4 of those rounds, yet I was not making progress in DA. After around three months, a friend and fellow competitor texted me a list of springs and parts and suggested I get them.

 

I purchased them x2 (one for each of Shadow 2s as to keep the trainer and match gun the same) for a sum of $80 shipped. Suddenly I was getting Alphas out of the holster and ringing steel out of the holster.

 

I don’t know how much longer it would have taken me to achieve the same results with training but at three months, and at least more than 9x the cost in ammunition, I “bought performance” with two spring kits and firing pins.

 

According to some of you guys how long should I have “trained” to get the same result of $80 on parts? Additionally, are those guys all shooting 100% stock pistols? Yes, I will continue to practice. My practice has and should continue to focus on the whole gamut of skills but it did not correct my shortcoming at this time while parts did improve my scores and confidence. The notion that it is practice OR parts is asinine. It should be practice AND parts.

 

ETA: I also had a $450 training course during this time and fired 1,200 rounds during that which I didn’t count.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for the great example.

 

I guess 1000$ wouldn't have been enough to get those DA shoots to be Alpha 99% of the times (given a certain time constraint)

[11MM]

Decent gun, then tons of practice. I often get caught up in equipment and gadgets. I like those things, but the do not cause me to shoot instantly better. I try now to shoot until I have an issue about the gun that is holding me back. If I can say, "This particular feature, or lack thereof, if slowing me down or causing me to not perform better", then that feature gets addressed. If I listened to my inner voice about equipment, I would show up with the Swiss Army knives of guns.

[RedlandsShooter]

Practice takes dedication and sacrifice, upgrading a part typically takes little of neither.  It is human nature to take the the easy (perceived anyways) route, in this case purchase a part to make me a better shooter.  Once the reliable/good gun quotient is achieved, the ROI for the latest gadget is  nil.  The ROI on practice will always be there.

[GOF]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 5:27 PM, Hi-Power Jack said:

Guess I'm the only BE member who believes that improving your trigger and

sights is usually a Real Great Idea.

 

And, sometimes, accuracy, too    

Nope, you ain't alone. It REALLY helps to have sights you can quickly see, and that hold their zero. Then a trigger that breaks smoothly and consistently. Then, maybe some grips that fit your hand and provide a positive and repeatable grip on the gun. Once you have a gun that facilitates good scores... practice becomes the answer. But spending a lot of time & money practicing with a sub-par gun will still result in your being a sub-par shooter.

The "Indian Not The Arrow" analogy only goes so far. Every successful Indian made darn sure they had quality arrows

Edited September 1, 2019 by GOF

[xdf3]

16 hours ago, GOF said:

Nope, you ain't alone. It REALLY helps to have sights you can quickly see, and that hold their zero. Then a trigger that breaks smoothly and consistently. Then, maybe some grips that fit your hand and provide a positive and repeatable grip on the gun. Once you have a gun that facilitates good scores... practice becomes the answer. But spending a lot of time & money practicing with a sub-par gun will still result in your being a sub-par shooter.

The "Indian Not The Arrow" analogy only goes so far. Every successful Indian made darn sure they had quality arrows

Anybody who says practice is better than parts, is lying.

There are a lot of bad examples too. It's so easy to buy some parts (under 200$ in most guns) to achieve great results and save thousands of dollars in practice. I've seen that too many times. Shooting 20'000 rounds just to master a stock glock trigger won't make anyone a great shooter, just one who shot 20'000 rounds to master THAT trigger.

[carolina_boy1990]

Practicing properly. Practicing  the wrong way no bueno.

[stick]

I guess you're resurrecting a  8 year old post because you couldn't find any new content to post on?

3 minutes ago, carolina_boy1990 said:

Practicing properly. Practicing  the wrong way no bueno.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by stick

[Steve RA]