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MAJOR accuracy problem


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Ok so i am in trouble. i have about 2 months till Bianchi cup and i still haven't got a load that shoots good groups, but is relatively soft to shoot.

I only have titegroup so please DO NOT suggest another powder. i jut don't think i will get it in time for bianchi. i have to load 4k for my team.

Here is what i have tried.

I am using speer casings with CCI small pistol primers. all brass is cleaned and prepped the same way. they almost look brand new. i am using a hornady 124 grain JHP. ( i know, we got a killer deal on them.)

I chronoed 3.8 grains and 4.2 grains of titegroup. i am testing them out of a 9mm sti trojan 1911. i have used the same components but with CLAYS and have gotten 2 -3 inch groups out of the same gun (the gun is not the problem.)

the 4.2 grain load was about 131PF out of my gun. i am trying to run it there b/c not everyone is shooting a 5" 1911. so i am trying to get a load that is high enough to still be soft and accurate, but work for all 4 team members guns.

I am using a dillion 550 and loading them to factory OAL and Crimp. I only loaded 30 to test the accuracy and function. i checked the powder every 5 rounds to make sure they were all between 4.0 and 4.2.

I was lucky to hit the paper with the first 9 rounds at 25 yards and i was lucky to hit the scoring rings at 15 yards with the second 9. If you arn't familiar with a bianchi cup target i believe it is 18" wide by like 30" high. the largest scoring ring is 12", i think. i used a bench as a rest with a front and rear bag.

When i got these results i got some factory ammo out to re-check the gun and shot a 3-4 inch group with American Eagle. yes i probably could use a new barrel, but a 4" group at 25 yards with American Eagle is good Enough for me

Thanks for all the help in advance.

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Ok so i am in trouble. i have about 2 months till Bianchi cup and i still haven't got a load that shoots good groups, but is relatively soft to shoot.

I only have titegroup so please DO NOT suggest another powder. i jut don't think i will get it in time for bianchi. i have to load 4k for my team.

Here is what i have tried.

I am using speer casings with CCI small pistol primers. all brass is cleaned and prepped the same way. they almost look brand new. i am using a hornady 124 grain JHP. ( i know, we got a killer deal on them). are they plated ?

I chronoed 3.8 grains and 4.2 grains of titegroup. i am testing them out of a 9mm sti trojan 1911. i have used the same components but with CLAYS and have gotten 2 -3 inch groups out of the same gun (the gun is not the problem.)

the 4.2 grain load was about 131PF out of my gun. i am trying to run it there b/c not everyone is shooting a 5" 1911. so i am trying to get a load that is high enough to still be soft and accurate, but work for all 4 team members guns.

I am using a dillion 550 and loading them to factory OAL and Crimp. I only loaded 30 to test the accuracy and function. i checked the powder every 5 rounds to make sure they were all between 4.0 and 4.2.

I was lucky to hit the paper with the first 9 rounds at 25 yards and i was lucky to hit the scoring rings at 15 yards with the second 9. If you arn't familiar with a bianchi cup target i believe it is 18" wide by like 30" high. the largest scoring ring is 12", i think. i used a bench as a rest with a front and rear bag.

When i got these results i got some factory ammo out to re-check the gun and shot a 3-4 inch group with American Eagle. yes i probably could use a new barrel, but a 4" group at 25 yards with American Eagle is good Enough for me

Thanks for all the help in advance.

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ok my OAL is 1.150 and i am not sure of my crimp. these numbers are off the top of my head and may be a little off. i can tell you that i used the oal and crimp that is on an American Eagle.

Bianchi Cup is 120 PF, however i would rather shoot something a little faster, more like 130 PF.

chrono 5 rounds:

3.8 grains:5 round avg speed was 1011/124 PF

1006

978

999

1046

1029

4.2 graind: 5 round avg speed was 1082; 133PF

1103

1110

1104

1000

1094

i checked every 5 rounds to illiminate the the thought of a flyer if the rounds would have shot a group.

i do not check every 5 rounds once i get everything dialed in. when i sit down to load them in bulk i may check every 100 - 200 rounds.

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Thanks, did you accuracy test the 3.8 load? The 4.2 load has one shot way different than the others but the 3.8 load looks a little better. I was going to suggest taking them out longer but what other guns will this be shot out of? You will be bound by the shortest of them. Also, I know these are jacketed but even jacketed can be affected by crimp. Given that you are using the same as factory, you should be good but check it again. Should be around .376-.378.

There doesn't seem to be a glaring problem here so far. If I was you, I would load up about 3-4 different OAL and then try adjusting the powder between 4.0 - 4.4, depending on the OAL. Remember to lessen the powder on the shorter OAL due to pressure problems (watch for signs!).

This is scary though - having accuracy that bad usually indicates a big issue but you have good components and good procedures so this might be a tough one...good luck

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ok i will check the crimp tonight. i am probably overcrimping. just didn't think it would have that much of an impact on the accuracy. i will check the OAL tonight and lengthen it a bit.

thanks for your help i will update tomorrow after i shoot the new load.

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One other thought...have you shot these bullets in other guns and were they accurate? I have never used the Hornady but they may not like the powder/gun combination. Do you have other bullets to try? If not, if you want to trade some MG for Hornady just for testing, that might help narrow down the problem. I also have a Trojan 9mm so the testing could be easily baselined.

However, even if this is the problem, that doesn't help your dilemma very much but at least you could rule that out or know the issue.

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I know you said it is not the gun... However have you tried it in another gun?

I also note that you have an extremely high ES at 4.2 grains, it would have been good without the one at 1000 fps (110 fps ES), the 3.8 was better but still high at 51 fps ES). Could be inconsistent crimp, inconsistent powder thrown, bullets inconsistent weight...

I have used Hornady before with no issues like this, were these bullets seconds or blemished?

Are the bullets being pushed back when feeding?

Edited by GuildSF4
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When I test different Bianchi loads, this is what I do:

1. Load powder charges in .1 or .2 increments from low, to max. Use single head stamp brass. (All Win, FC, Starline, etc, just pick 1) I use 1.120 OAL as a test length. Load 12 of each length.

When testing, load 7 in the mag. 6 of the test loads, and 1 random load as the top round. Shoot the random into the berm. Then shoot the remaining six as your group. You should have 2 groups of each load to make a decision from.

2. Take the most accurate load, and load it from 1.10 to 1.150 in .1 increments. Load 12 of each length.

When testing, load 7 in the mag. 6 of the test loads, and 1 random load as the top round. Shoot the random into the berm. Then shoot the remaining six as your group. You will have 2 groups of each load to make a decision from.

After that, you should have a good idea of what load is the best. Then load a bunch of it.

You should be able to find something with Titegroup. That's what I use. I was 4.3 with a Hornady 121 HAP, 4.5 with a Zero 115 JHP and now 4.2 and a 115 Zero JHP in my new barrel. ( I shoot open, and test at 50yds )

I know you got a deal on the 124's, but you might want to try 115's or 147's if you have time to buy a bunch of them.. (probably not though.. :( )

Check your crip, very light to no crimp should be fine. Also, check for setback as previously suggested. That will play heck with your ES.

Re: American Eagle, what gr bullet?

Edited by DWFAN
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Assuming your team is local to each other, I'd "plunk" test everyones barrel and load as long as the shortest chamber will allow.

Don't crimp, all you want to do is remove the bell from the case, check the sidewall with a straight edge. If you experience set back, polish the powder drop until you reduce the diameter slightly, you want the case to tightly grip the bullet.

Try to get some of the other guns and when you test, test several of them for accuracy, not just one.

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Don't crimp, all you want to do is remove the bell from the case,...

Crimp doesn't mean a bad thing, you want to press or push the bell in...that is crimp. To what degree of it is another topic...

Definition of CRIMP

a
:
to form (leather) into a desired shape

b
:
to give (synthetic fibers) a curl or wave like that of natural fibers

c
:
to pinch or press together (as the margins of a pie crust) in order to seal
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ok so gng4life i will get back to you on the bullets for a test. i think i have found the problem. i remembered when i got to the press tonight that i loaded some round nose last time i loaded 9 and now i loaded some hallow points and my OAL was 1.08, so really short. my crimp was .370. i have lengthened them to 1.16 and the crimp is set to .377. i will see how these work tomorrow.

i think they were way to short and to tight.

hopefully they will shoot better tomorrow. i will update tomorrow.

thanks for the help.

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Hornady 124 xtp's in my experience worked best at 1.085, and I crimp .3785. 4.0-4.2 of tightgroup. In my Dan Wesson I get 1.25" 10 shot group at 25 yds in the ransom rest, and have shot 3/4" 5 shot group benched with my EAA Limited gun.

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SS+P, I would take the advice of Darrell...he does a ton of testing and post his results on here for us, I'm sure his formula will work for you. Let us know how it goes...

Thanks Darrell!!

Edited by gng4life
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hey guys thanks for all the input.

so i have loaded up some more ammo to 1.16 with a crimp of .377 with everything else staying the same. unfortunatly i didn't have my phone with me to take a picture but i keyholed 3 rounds at 25 yards from a rest and had a 7 shot total group of about 3"s.

i think the flyers could have been me or the gun, probably not the most accurate barrel, but i am happy that i am at least inside 4" at 25 yards.

i am having the gun that i am shooting in the bianchi cup rebarreled so i think that combo will be more accurate. the guys i am going with all work with me so i will have a chance to test there guns as well.

Thanks again for all your help.

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Did you ever test the barrel's of the guys you work with? if you have not, Don't give them any of your reloads to shoot! many guns have different OAL requirements. each guns barrel must have a push test to see what OAL works in each gun. look at the link, it will show you how each gun maker makes the chamber longer or shorter. you are loading long and not all guns will work or be safe with long OAL. Loading to a factory OAL without using the same bullet, may work in your gun but blow up your buddy's gun.

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0

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