"Gotcha" stages

[Nik Habicht]

Clearly revolver neutrality has gone the way of the dinosaur. I shot a classifier where 8 rounds were shot from one spot.

Revolver neutral stages are boring for the rest of us.

Pat

It is, if the stage designer does not know what he is doing.

If he has half a clue, the stage will be good for everyone.

6 rounds or less per target array is just boring to me. I can tolerate 8 round target arrays but 6 gets boring to me. I came to shoot. I feel that revolver neutral stages belong in revolver only matches. I also hate the idea of having to make a match for all divisions having to accommodate the most obsolete ones there at the match. To make matters worse there is generally only 1 or 2 revolver guys.

Pat

Any time you start talking arrays, I'm already bored.....

It beats not shooting, but not by much....

[Jim Norman]

Arrays are not a good way to build a stage, my opinion. Build the stage so that there is shooting and so that you need to move to see and engage the targets. Yes you can have a couple targets grouped, but to me arrays are indicative of a stage where you go here shoot 8, go there shoot 8 go somewheres else and shoot 8. You knw, the old 3 or 4 boxes or ports. What is needed or at least wanted by most for excitement is a stage where you start here and finish there and shoot on the way. Yes a port or two, a wall or three, barricades, tight shots, open shots, all mixed up. How fast can you go before you crash and burn? Running from one port to the next or one box tothe next just doesn't cut it.

[Alaskapopo]

Arrays are not a good way to build a stage, my opinion. Build the stage so that there is shooting and so that you need to move to see and engage the targets. Yes you can have a couple targets grouped, but to me arrays are indicative of a stage where you go here shoot 8, go there shoot 8 go somewheres else and shoot 8. You knw, the old 3 or 4 boxes or ports. What is needed or at least wanted by most for excitement is a stage where you start here and finish there and shoot on the way. Yes a port or two, a wall or three, barricades, tight shots, open shots, all mixed up. How fast can you go before you crash and burn? Running from one port to the next or one box tothe next just doesn't cut it.

If your a small club or rather a couple of friends who host matches with out a ton of props then you do what you have to do.

Pat

[sperman]

Arrays are not a good way to build a stage, my opinion. Build the stage so that there is shooting and so that you need to move to see and engage the targets. Yes you can have a couple targets grouped, but to me arrays are indicative of a stage where you go here shoot 8, go there shoot 8 go somewheres else and shoot 8. You knw, the old 3 or 4 boxes or ports. What is needed or at least wanted by most for excitement is a stage where you start here and finish there and shoot on the way. Yes a port or two, a wall or three, barricades, tight shots, open shots, all mixed up. How fast can you go before you crash and burn? Running from one port to the next or one box tothe next just doesn't cut it.

+1. You can be creative in your stage design without a lot of props. It is more of a challenge, but it can be done.

[Alaskapopo]

Arrays are not a good way to build a stage, my opinion. Build the stage so that there is shooting and so that you need to move to see and engage the targets. Yes you can have a couple targets grouped, but to me arrays are indicative of a stage where you go here shoot 8, go there shoot 8 go somewheres else and shoot 8. You knw, the old 3 or 4 boxes or ports. What is needed or at least wanted by most for excitement is a stage where you start here and finish there and shoot on the way. Yes a port or two, a wall or three, barricades, tight shots, open shots, all mixed up. How fast can you go before you crash and burn? Running from one port to the next or one box tothe next just doesn't cut it.

+1. You can be creative in your stage design without a lot of props. It is more of a challenge, but it can be done.

I like stages that allow you to think but I also like standards type stages that show who is the best shooter not the best thinker. There is room for both.

Pat

[B_Seehawer]

That is an ICORE stage first off - second - what about that is hard? Heck you don't even have to move from one spot!

I shot a state match in 2011 that had a solid walled MEMORY stage. All the targets looked identical. I was first up and got lucky and got them all but it was like I was clearing rooms searching for bad guys.

The suck part is the guys that lived around there walked up and shot the stage the fastest from a couple of positions.

If the stage REQUIRES you to show up a day in advance just to figure it out, it's to damn complicated. Showing up a day in advance is always nice as you can get a feel for TE stage and walk it if nobody is on it but you shouldn't be required to do to the difficulty of the stage.

Not to sound like a jerk or anything.

If you showed up only early enough to do the walk-through, it doesn't sound like you took the match seriously enough in the first place. Imo

[B_Seehawer]

There is no such thing as a "memory" stage.

Disagree.

I have seen stages that require some targets to be shot once some twice others three times all virgina count all on the same stage. That is a memory stage and I don't care for them.

Pat

I disagree.

ALL stages have a best/most efficient way to shoot them.

It's up to you to find it. That's half the game dude.

When the buzzer goes off, I don't remember shit.

Just my plan.

[TroyB]

There is no such thing as a "memory" stage.

Disagree.

I have seen stages that require some targets to be shot once some twice others three times all virgina count all on the same stage. That is a memory stage and I don't care for them.

Pat

I disagree.

ALL stages have a best/most efficient way to shoot them.

It's up to you to find it. That's half the game dude.

When the buzzer goes off, I don't remember shit.

Just my plan.

I like the idea that all stages have a best/most efficient way to shoot them, but it seems most of the time, everyone shoots it the same way. It would be nice if no one saw how the shooter ahead of them shoot the stage and see who shot it differently, but even I know that's not realistic.

As far as the "memory" stages, I don't hate them like I used to.

[tbarker13]

There is no such thing as a "memory" stage.

Disagree.

I have seen stages that require some targets to be shot once some twice others three times all virgina count all on the same stage. That is a memory stage and I don't care for them.

Pat

I disagree.

ALL stages have a best/most efficient way to shoot them.

It's up to you to find it. That's half the game dude.

When the buzzer goes off, I don't remember shit.

Just my plan.

Interesting thought.

I'm not sure I totally agree with it though. At least not completely.

I'd argue that the breakdown of some stages can be influenced by the shooter's own particular skills.

Shooting on the move. Distance shooting. Reload speed, etc.

[BillD]

That is an ICORE stage first off - second - what about that is hard? Heck you don't even have to move from one spot!

I shot a state match in 2011 that had a solid walled MEMORY stage. All the targets looked identical. I was first up and got lucky and got them all but it was like I was clearing rooms searching for bad guys.

The suck part is the guys that lived around there walked up and shot the stage the fastest from a couple of positions.

If the stage REQUIRES you to show up a day in advance just to figure it out, it's to damn complicated. Showing up a day in advance is always nice as you can get a feel for TE stage and walk it if nobody is on it but you shouldn't be required to do to the difficulty of the stage.

Not to sound like a jerk or anything.

If you showed up only early enough to do the walk-through, it doesn't sound like you took the match seriously enough in the first place. Imo

Sometimes, there are only so many vacation days in a year.

[RammerJammer]

Every stage is a gotcha stage when you suck.

[ihocky2]

I personally like memory stages because I can usually figure them out and enjoy the challenge. Even if I crash and burn I enjoy the challenge. The problem I have with them is the first shooter has his plan and that is it, by the time you hit the 10th shooter they have their original plan and the plan 9 different guys used. The 10th shooter has more of an advantage, and on a stage that is more likely to affect the final results. Memory stages would be a great one to not allow shooters to see how others shoot the stage, make it a more level playing field. Now, that can be said for all stages but memory stages favor those deeper in the squad than other stages do.

With the change to allowing revolvers to run 8 round guns takes away the revolver neutral stage. But I agree that 8-8-8-8 arrays are as boring as 6-6-6-6 arrays. Challenge me, make me work out a plan, give me options, give me different target counts.

[Seabeejordan]

I like the gotcha stages if that is what were going to call them. But that is why i like USPSA over IDPA, I am also a thinker and work things out in my head long before the buzzer. I find it you realy study the stage on the walk through its easy, if you have a 32 round count stage when you are figuring out your reload points you should be counting shots, make sure they match up to 32 rounds, than hit your reload spots during the COF and you should be good.

[BOOST]

Every stage is a gotcha stage when you suck.

LOL !!!

[theblacknight]

What dynamic sport dosent involve the mind? Practical shooting is no different.

I found that people who are deficient in a certain area will try to claim that this shooting game thing we do isnt about (fill in the blank), when really the rule book allows different.

Perceive yourself as not very athletic? "I came for a shooting match, not a foot race!".

Not the sharpest stick? "I want action shooting, not a game of chess!"

Even tho we play a game, the practical roots of the sport tend to indicate that movement and thinking skills should be tested.

There are other shooting sports that don't have these things. I shot smallbore as a kid and it was very rewarding and the best place to hone fundamentals. I shot a service legacy match(Eastern USMC Div matches) that was a hoot . There's even one that looks very much like practical shooting but penalizes unauthorized strategy which differs from the COF designers uncommunicated stage intent or olympic speed walking skills .

I see a lot of area and sectional matches have a lot of options based off the stage design which leave it up to the shooter how to best shoot within their division and skill level, so it comes to a shock to shooters used to the easy to set up no shooter left behind stages that clubs do. I had that moment too. You can either work on it, or not.

[Nimitz]

You hit the nail on the head. When you hear a rank and file shooter make comments like you stated it's a pretty good bet that they have just told everyone what their weakness is. Like you I shoot USPSA because of all the different elements within it that make it relatively complex compared to other shooting competitions. For me, the more complex the better ...

It would be interesting if competitors were not able to watch others shoot the stage ... Wouldn't make a difference for the top shooters but for everyone else ...

[BOOST]

What dynamic sport dosent involve the mind? Practical shooting is no different.

I found that people who are deficient in a certain area will try to claim that this shooting game thing we do isnt about (fill in the blank), when really the rule book allows different.

Perceive yourself as not very athletic? "I came for a shooting match, not a foot race!".

Not the sharpest stick? "I want action shooting, not a game of chess!"

Even tho we play a game, the practical roots of the sport tend to indicate that movement and thinking skills should be tested.

There are other shooting sports that don't have these things. I shot smallbore as a kid and it was very rewarding and the best place to hone fundamentals. I shot a service legacy match(Eastern USMC Div matches) that was a hoot . There's even one that looks very much like practical shooting but penalizes unauthorized strategy which differs from the COF designers uncommunicated stage intent or olympic speed walking skills .

I see a lot of area and sectional matches have a lot of options based off the stage design which leave it up to the shooter how to best shoot within their division and skill level, so it comes to a shock to shooters used to the easy to set up no shooter left behind stages that clubs do. I had that moment too. You can either work on it, or not.

After 8 months ,THIS by far has to be the best reply yet.

And so true like what Nimitz mentioned about how a shooter exposing one's weakness.

[newmexicocrawler]

I like these stages a lot, make you think, remember, and move....like it

[Brooke]

I hate memory stages..... not sure if this is a subset of gotcha stages. I want to be challenged on my shooting skills... not memory. I've only shot a handful of what I would call memory stages... all stages require you to remember some things.

I agree. The so-called memory stages are like Vietnam combat. Running through the jungle looking for and trying to shoot the enemy before he can shoot you. The only difference is we get a preview of the war so we can try to memorize where the enemy is located. How real is that? Obviously not at all. Stages like that should be run blind with no walkthrough. Personally I'd skip those matches, but to each his own. These are just video games.

The more likely scenario for any defensive, nonmilitary situation is that the enemy is perfectly obvious and the shooter wants to protect himself by hitting the targets and retreating from the scene. Not clearing a crack house. That's SWAT's job. I view these stages as tests of one's speed and accuracy with his weapon. I prefer the skills tests to the easter egg hunts.

[Kool Aid]

I don't mind one complicated mind bender per match, but also want at least one stage that flows really well, a classifier and one total hose fest. Let's see who is well rounded.

[bigboy69]

I don't like memory stages. I don't think it shows how good of a shooter you are.

[56hawk]

While I woudn't necessarily call them memory stages, I do like designing stages where there are lots of options on how to shoot them. I think this makes it more fun for the limited capacity divisions by letting them come up with a stage plan that minimizes reloads. Of course this does mean that invariably someone will fail to engage a target, or engage it multiple times. I like it a lot better than stages that force you to shoot targets from specific places. It basically makes the stages the way they were when we were using shooting boxes for everything.

[chalkdust21]

Memory stages with options are challenging but also good. Gotcha is when course designers put a hidden target right at a position you would normally be moving / reloading with the INTENT for you to blow past it.

[shws]

Nope those are the fun stages. The only ones I don't like are the ones with "180 traps", especially if the designer puts them in purposely.

[seadog_99]

The stages I consider "gotcha" stages are ones that attempt to lead a shooter into an unsafe action (180, sweeping while activating a prop, etc). These are total crap. The challenging ones that I often hear called "gotchas" because they require a certain amount of skill should be encouraged as they are what makes USPSA matches more fun than those from the other sanctioning bodies.