Available to the General Public

[Flexmoney]

As an aside, if there are truly concerns about someone from those groups not being able to shoot his or her duty weapon, address that separately, don't undermine the meaning and intent of the base rule.

Logical, and gets us back on topic.

[Shokr21]

snip

The rules don't require 2000 units sold to USPSA shooters, or even 2000 units available to the general public. They do require 2000 units manufactured, AND the gun be available to the general public?

So you're interpreting this to mean that as long as there are 2000 units somewhere, and 1 of them is available to the general public somewhere the gun is legal? Even though the other 1999 units are not available to the general public?

I think it means that 2000 have been produced, also that those 2000 units have been in some way available to the general public.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Shokr21

[Ben Stoeger]

IMO, the general public excludes any agency, foreign or domestic.

Available means just that. They are currently or have in the past been available for puchase. Putting it in the catalog and saying "we'll get to it once we get caught up on other orders" doesn't qualify.

Because it is so vague, I don't see why the President or BOD couldn't tell a manufacturer, "Sorry, but you haven't met that obligation yet." Put the burdon on the manufacturer to prove they have.

Playing Devil's advocate:

So if the FBI for instance orders 10,000 copies of an otherwise compliant blaster, say a gun identical to a Glock 21 but called the Glock 47, which is not available to the general public, you'd be opposed to allowing that in Production, even though 10,000 civilians are carrying it?

The way the rule is written now would exclude that gun from production... wouldn't it?

Not according to the current USPSA interpretation.....

And I'd have trouble keeping an M9 or M11 from playing in the division when the 92 and 228 are on the list....

Do you think that interpretation is correct or not?

I personally don't like that M9s are excluded from production division (as I read the rule), but that doesn't change what the rule actually says does it?

I guess I don't know what the USPSA interpretation is or what the reasoning is. Could you enlighten me?

[warpspeed]

IMO, the general public excludes any agency, foreign or domestic.

Available means just that. They are currently or have in the past been available for puchase. Putting it in the catalog and saying "we'll get to it once we get caught up on other orders" doesn't qualify.

Because it is so vague, I don't see why the President or BOD couldn't tell a manufacturer, "Sorry, but you haven't met that obligation yet." Put the burdon on the manufacturer to prove they have.

Playing Devil's advocate:

So if the FBI for instance orders 10,000 copies of an otherwise compliant blaster, say a gun identical to a Glock 21 but called the Glock 47, which is not available to the general public, you'd be opposed to allowing that in Production, even though 10,000 civilians are carrying it?

Nik,

Under your description, the Glock 47 is a Glock 21, just engraved differently on the slide, right ?

So, there is nothing keeping me from buying a Glock 21 to compete with. The G21 is for sale.

Now, if the FBI agent wants to use his duty weapon in an USPSA sanctioned match, he could not, as the rule is written but he could buy a Glock 21 and shoot it. Nothing stopping him and since the only difference is the name on the slide, he is at no competitive advantage or disadvantage in doing so.

OK -- I'll play. He could just shoot the 47 as well -- it offers no advantage to your 21.

Now suppose it's 15 years from now, the FBI agent wants to shoot his issued S&W 1006, that he's been carrying since the mid 80s, and you can't find one anywhere in the country to buy....

Should we delete it? Or can we just say that the gun is substantially identical to current competitive blasters on the list?

I'm in favor of an inclusive rather than exclusive list.....

The difference between the 21 and the 47 is that the 21 is available to everyone and the 47 is not. The way the Production Division is currently set up, the guns need to be available to anyone who wants one and not just to a select group of people. I don't think that should change. Since the difference between the 21 and the 47 is purely cosmetic, there is no disadvantage to using the 21.

And the USPSA member can always shoot it in Limited or L-10.

If I understand it correctly, once on the list, always on the list. I don't see anywhere in the rules where there is a mechanism for removal. It is not like the California DOJ list where it needs to be renewed.

[Thomas H]

The difference between the 21 and the 47 is that the 21 is available to everyone and the 47 is not. The way the Production Division is currently set up, the guns need to be available to anyone who wants one and not just to a select group of people. I don't think that should change. Since the difference between the 21 and the 47 is purely cosmetic, there is no disadvantage to using the 21.

So, what you are saying is that a guy who owns a gun that exactly matches one on the Production list (other than a model number) has to go out and buy a new gun that is exactly the same as the gun they currently own (other than a model number) just to play our game?

Hm.

[Shokr21]

The difference between the 21 and the 47 is that the 21 is available to everyone and the 47 is not. The way the Production Division is currently set up, the guns need to be available to anyone who wants one and not just to a select group of people. I don't think that should change. Since the difference between the 21 and the 47 is purely cosmetic, there is no disadvantage to using the 21.

So, what you are saying is that a guy who owns a gun that exactly matches one on the Production list (other than a model number) has to go out and buy a new gun that is exactly the same as the gun they currently own (other than a model number) just to play our game?

Hm.

If he wants to play in production that's the way I read the rule. He can play in ltd or ltd10 or open if he wants

[38SuperDub]

Is the 21 and 47 a 100000% identical match?

[Thomas H]

Is the 21 and 47 a 100000% identical match?

I was basing my comment on the initial premise, which is that they were identical other than a model designation.

I also note that I wasn't basing my comment on what I may or may not think is true currently, since we are working on getting a better, more defined rule---my comment was merely to point out that I don't like the conclusion that a gun issued to 10,000 people that is identical to one on the Production list would not be allowed nor would ever be simply because it was only issued to members of a government entity.

[Flexmoney]

As an aside, if there are truly concerns about someone from those groups not being able to shoot his or her duty weapon, address that separately, don't undermine the meaning and intent of the base rule.

Logical, and gets us back on topic.

If we need to come up with a way for a soldier to shoot his/her M9 (Beretta 92F) we should be able to do that? If a gun is the same as on the list for the general population, we should have a means to look at that. But, that isn't really the issue here, right?

[38SuperDub]

As an aside, if there are truly concerns about someone from those groups not being able to shoot his or her duty weapon, address that separately, don't undermine the meaning and intent of the base rule.

Logical, and gets us back on topic.

If we need to come up with a way for a soldier to shoot his/her M9 (Beretta 92F) we should be able to do that? If a gun is the same as on the list for the general population, we should have a means to look at that. But, that isn't really the issue here, right?

Honestly here is my OPINION of the issue.

I have been attacked before for saying this but I'll say it again.

THE RULE BOOK NEEDS A REWRITE!!

There are a TON of gray areas, areas that are left up to interoperation, and just uclear areas. What is "General Public"? What is a "Race Holster"? What is "Suitable for everyday use"?

These all need to be looked it - I hate to say it but the rule book needs to be black and white. If A=B and B=C then A=C! Not "well I THINK A=B and B sorta = C so lets just say A=C".

OK - I'm ready - bring on the attacks (FYI I'm now an RO so that argument is no longer valid)

Edited March 27, 2013 by bsdubois00

[CZinSC]

As an aside, if there are truly concerns about someone from those groups not being able to shoot his or her duty weapon, address that separately, don't undermine the meaning and intent of the base rule.

Logical, and gets us back on topic.

If we need to come up with a way for a soldier to shoot his/her M9 (Beretta 92F) we should be able to do that? If a gun is the same as on the list for the general population, we should have a means to look at that. But, that isn't really the issue here, right?

Honestly here is my OPINION of the issue.

I have been attacked before for saying this but I'll say it again.

THE RULE BOOK NEEDS A REWRITE!!

There are a TON of gray areas, areas that are left up to interoperation, and just uclear areas. What is "General Public"? What is a "Race Holster"? What is "Suitable for everyday use"?

These all need to be looked it - I hate to say it but the rule book needs to be black and white. If A=B and B=C then A=C! Not "well I THINK A=B and B sorta = C so lets just say A=C".

OK - I'm ready - bring on the attacks (FYI I'm now an RO so that argument is no longer valid)

You're not a CRO.....so what do you know??!

[rgkeller]

Rule book definitely needs a grounds up rewrite including its organization.

An experienced technical writer and subject matter experts would be time and money well spent.

[motosapiens]

As an aside, if there are truly concerns about someone from those groups not being able to shoot his or her duty weapon, address that separately, don't undermine the meaning and intent of the base rule.

Logical, and gets us back on topic.

If we need to come up with a way for a soldier to shoot his/her M9 (Beretta 92F) we should be able to do that? If a gun is the same as on the list for the general population, we should have a means to look at that. But, that isn't really the issue here, right?

Honestly here is my OPINION of the issue.

I have been attacked before for saying this but I'll say it again.

THE RULE BOOK NEEDS A REWRITE!!

There are a TON of gray areas, areas that are left up to interoperation, and just uclear areas. What is "General Public"? What is a "Race Holster"? What is "Suitable for everyday use"?

These all need to be looked it - I hate to say it but the rule book needs to be black and white. If A=B and B=C then A=C! Not "well I THINK A=B and B sorta = C so lets just say A=C".

OK - I'm ready - bring on the attacks (FYI I'm now an RO so that argument is no longer valid)

So are you volunteering to rewrite the rulebook? or just complaining and waiting for someone else to do it?

The rulebook will never be black and white. All you have to do to convince yourself of that is to look at our legal system, where people get paid very well to write bullet-proof black and white laws, but lawyers can still argue about them until the cows come home, and keep arguing until the cows get sick of it and leave again.

Since we're all volunteers, and doing this for fun, I find it helpful to keep the 'spirit of the rule' in mind.

1. Are the production rules intended to make goldang sure that it's not possible for a sponsored shooter to compete with a gun before I get a chance to compete with it? Probably not.

2. Are the production rules intended to prevent custom one-off superduperguns and factory customization like we see in limited and open? Probably.

Which situation are we talking about here?

[JakeMartens]

subject matter experts

There are at least a dozen or so of these (at least proclaimed to be) on this forum on a daily basis

[38SuperDub]

I will gladly volunteer to help. A good place to start is expanding the glossary.

Think about it - if terms are DEFINED in the glossary then it would clear up a LOT without having to rewrite.

"General Public - Anyone who is not part of a special group (LEO, Mil, Contractors, Sponsored Shooters) qualifies as a part of the general public"

"Race Holster - a holster in which has an unlimited amount of adjustments and / or the primary retention method is a trigger locking device"

"Suitable for Every day use - stupid term which needs to be removed"

See - there is a start

[Nik Habicht]

"General Public - Anyone who is not part of a special group (LEO, Mil, Contractors, Sponsored Shooters) qualifies as a part of the general public"

I'm a nurse -- am I part of a special group?

One of my friends is a firefighter -- is he part of a special group?

What about the physician, the accountant, or the super senior? They're all part of special groups.....

If they're not, and are all members of the general public, than how are the folks in the four categories listed different?

[38SuperDub]

Because the folks you mentioned do not get special access to 1 off guns.

I agree lets spell it out. Special Group = LEO, GVT Agencies, MIL do not count towards the 2,000 number

Do you really feel that a military group in a foreign country having all 2,000 guns (I mean 1,999 since 1 made it here stateside) is the general public? If so I'm done even trying to make sense.

[motosapiens]

Because the folks you mentioned do not get special access to 1 off guns.

I agree lets spell it out. Special Group = LEO, GVT Agencies, MIL do not count towards the 2,000 number

Do you really feel that a military group in a foreign country having all 2,000 guns (I mean 1,999 since 1 made it here stateside) is the general public? If so I'm done even trying to make sense.

Do you *really* believe that a gun that is actually a competitive advantage is going to be purchased under LE or military contracts? I don't. In fact I think it's preposterous to even imagine it. If military and LE are buying it, it is almost by definition substandard for competitive purposes, at least without significant trigger and sight work.

[38SuperDub]

No but I think the wording needs to be there so companies can't say - OH a Rogue Military Group in Angola bought all 2,000 of them. It'll be 6 months before we make any more.

[warpspeed]

"General Public - Anyone who is not part of a special group (LEO, Mil, Contractors, Sponsored Shooters) qualifies as a part of the general public"

I'm a nurse -- am I part of a special group?

One of my friends is a firefighter -- is he part of a special group?

What about the physician, the accountant, or the super senior? They're all part of special groups.....

If they're not, and are all members of the general public, than how are the folks in the four categories listed different?

I see what you mean. The availability needs to be defined as available to the majority of the membership of the USPSA. I say that because there could be legal reasons why a particular pistol may not be sold in say Massachusetts or Maryland and that should not prohibit t from being used elsewhere.

Or should it ?

If

[OUshooter]

In the example given the G21 and G47 are not the same. One is available to the general public and one is not. If it's stamped LE/MIL ONLY and my commision brother can buy it but I can't then he shoots in L/L10. I know a few LE folks and they may go off duty but they are not civilians.

[Flexmoney]

"General Public - Anyone who is not part of a special group (LEO, Mil, Contractors, Sponsored Shooters) qualifies as a part of the general public"

I'm a nurse -- am I part of a special group?

Do you get to buy guns for Production Division that I don't get to buy? The answer to that is the answer to your question, IMO.

[motosapiens]

"General Public - Anyone who is not part of a special group (LEO, Mil, Contractors, Sponsored Shooters) qualifies as a part of the general public"

I'm a nurse -- am I part of a special group?

Do you get to buy guns for Production Division that I don't get to buy? The answer to that is the answer to your question, IMO.

but people that live in god's own paradise of idaho get to buy guns for production division that satan's minions in nj, ny, ca and other god-forsaken circles of hell can not buy. does that mean we're in a special group?

[Nik Habicht]

I'm mostly playing Devil's advocate, because I suspect we're going to be better solving this problem as a group.....

Gun company X is pretty popular in Production circles already, and has some blasters on the list. They announce that they are finally building a long slide version of their gun optimized for PD. Competitors start clamoring for updates on when company X will finally hit the manufacturing targets. There's a 1,000 guns out there, some even in the hands of USPSA competitors, and six months later the factory is finally ready to build another 1,000 guns. As they get them ready to ship, a large agency steps in and buys 500 guns. The other 500 hit the normal distribution network.

Has that gun qualified to make the list? Has it if the agency buys all 1,000 copies from the second run? Has it if every agency member issued the gun is also a USPSA member? Do competitors need to wait another six months, for another 500-1,000 guns to hopefully hit the streets, before they can use them in PD? Where do you want to draw the line?

[ima45dv8]

I've tried not to chime in here, but I need to (re)state the obvious.

Any manufacturer of any product would consider our (USPSA's current) wording, "..available for sale to the public...", as anyone with cash in hand who wants to buy our xyz. Government agency, private individual or mass-market wholesaler wouldn't matter. "Who's got the money to buy my product?"

To think otherwise, especially with the limited guidance we've provided is at best, demonstrating a state of childish simplicity.

Let's try to help craft a definition of our cetification document that includes, "...available to the general public..." that the manufacturers can embrace without thinking we're petulant children.

There were an estimated 85,000,000+ guns owned in the US before the recent tragic events. An additional 4.7 million were sold in November and December 2012 alone. That is a staggering amount. As much as we active shooters would like to believe otherwise, the gun business in this country is but a grain of sand in the GNP computation, and we active competitors are only a tiny portion of that small business.

At a whopping 24,000 members of USPSA (and I don't know how many in IDPA), we may be more savvy than most, but our collective dollars are but a drop in the markets bucket.

So, back to the original question, and with some sense of proportion in mind, what wording would you suggest we put in our "certification" document for manufacturers to sign?